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Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part II: Electric Boogaloo

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Alexh said:
... Another one to look out for is Recording Studio Design by Phillip newell. My main system is based own the advice given there as they are into professional installations as opposed to ego based illusionary posters :)
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In fact Philip Newell in his excellent book recommends significant effort on earthing and oversized earth cables - an area that I was exploring in this thread some weeks ago and was clearly told I'd got it all wrong.

He also talks a bit about Technical Earths, and recommends Phillip Giddings book 'Audio System Design and Installation' ( the first 113 pages of which are devoted to power and grounding systems). Newell also talks about the 'damage' many EMI or RFI filters do in simply 'dumping even more electrical hash on the earthing system'.

From his experience Newell recommends the use of Balanced Power - but then I guess that's another argument altogether!

Cheers. Bill
 
misterdog said:
Many manufacturers have a series of amps at different price points, obviously the more you spend the more effort goes into design and component quality.
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I agree, though not always successful, I have experienced amps costing a 5th of the price of some that allow though the signal with emotion in tact, some just restrain it or sterilize it which goes full circle on the argument of design, does creating the "so called" perfect piece of equipment really allow us to enjoy the original intent of the musician, there is obviously more to it than just perfect measurement.

What is ironic regarding this thread is, most designers do their final analisis using their god given tools, their ears.
 
Ragaman said:
I agree, though not always successful, I have experienced amps costing a 5th of the price of some that allow though the signal with emotion in tact, some just restrain it or sterilize it which goes full circle on the argument of design, does creating the "so called" perfect piece of equipment really allow us to enjoy the original intent of the musician, there is obviously more to it than just perfect measurement.

What is ironic regarding this thread is, most designers do their final analisis using their god given tools, their ears.
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You referenced using a Rega Brio (non-R) earlier in this thread.

Given this, you must have noticed the economies made in the rectification stage of the amplifier ?

Let's turn it around. Why do *you* think the designer would have done this and what qualities in the final sound have they sacrificed?

If we are trying to establish the influence clean electrical power makes on amplifier performance, should we not at least examine different design solutions regards power supply ? (e.g will simple diode rectification suffice)
 
kabayiri said:
You referenced using a Rega Brio (non-R) earlier in this thread.

Given this, you must have noticed the economies made in the rectification stage of the amplifier ?

Let's turn it around. Why do *you* think the designer would have done this and what qualities in the final sound have they sacrificed?

If we are trying to establish the influence clean electrical power makes on amplifier performance, should we not at least examine different design solutions regards power supply ? (e.g will simple diode rectification suffice)
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I have used a brio 2000, brio 3 & brio-r, all sound different to me, I have no idea about rectifiers/diode rectification, your asking the wrong guy, I listen, I don't measure, design or build these devices, you need to ask Jim if you want answers to electronic design.

I stated I have listened to amps costing into the thousands that have under performed against some costing a few hundred blind, the Rega brio 3 being one such amp. You would be better off asking Rega regarding the specific design of this amp & the sacrifices made along the way, it sounds superb though, whatever was compromised, it wasn't the sound quality, but that's just my personal view on it, many agree it is a great little budget amp that sounds way above it's price.
 
adamk said:
This one is a regular in these mains cable threads- can anyone actually name and shame these poorly designed products ?
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Well the equipment I have owned over the years hasnt suffered this problem so I cant really comment.

The observation is based upon the subjective assertions made by people in this thread and eksewhere, including the vendors of aftermarket mains cables. Its tgese individuals that insist their equipment is affected, not me.
 
BilliumB said:
In fact Philip Newell in his excellent book recommends significant effort on earthing and oversized earth cables - an area that I was exploring in this thread some weeks ago and was clearly told I'd got it all wrong.

He also talks a bit about Technical Earths, and recommends Phillip Giddings book 'Audio System Design and Installation' ( the first 113 pages of which are devoted to power and grounding systems). Newell also talks about the 'damage' many EMI or RFI filters do in simply 'dumping even more electrical hash on the earthing system'.

From his experience Newell recommends the use of Balanced Power - but then I guess that's another argument altogether!

Cheers. Bill
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Actually you were not told you had it all wrong. It was suggested that you are trying told solve problem which may not exist. As someone said, going into a chemist and asking for random medicine just in case.

You were advised that low leakage RF filters are easily available that dont have the Y earth capacitor. These wont dump noise on the earth. So in that case Newalls advice was incomplete.

You were also advised that having your signal connected to mains earth, as is potentially the case in single ended systems, is a dumb idea. Hence the other advice to go double insulated and balanced.

Douglas Self on balanced mains

There has been speculation in recent times as to whether a balanced mains supply is a good idea. This means that instead of live and neutral (230 V and 0V) you have live and the other live (115V–0–115V) created by a centretapped transformer with the tap connected to Neutral. See Figure 14.7. It has been suggested that balanced mains has miraculous effects on sound quality, makes the sound stage ten dimensional, etc. This is obviously nonsense.

If a piece of gear is that fussy about its mains (and I don’t believe any such gear exists) then dispose of it.
 
adamdea said:
It's tricky because the rf thing is just a conjecture. It's only there to provide a conceivable physical explanation for the perceived differences. I wouldn't take it too literally. Otherwise one just goes down the "jitter" road.
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Its interesting that although RF is one of the conceivable explanations you will frequently read that when people try proper RF filters they hear no difference. As you say, its only conjecture that it is the problem. Seems to suggest it probably isnt a problem for most people/equipment.

Where does that leave magic mains leads?
 
BE718 said:
Its interesting that although RF is one of the conceivable explanations you will frequently read that when people try proper RF filters they hear no difference. As you say, its only conjecture that it is the problem. Seems to suggest it probably isnt a problem for most people/equipment.

Where does that leave magic mains leads?
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Strangely benefitting from the attention.
 
Ragaman said:
Maybe you should follow your own advice & read the post, then your response before hitting the ego button, have you seen the flaw yet.

The mind of the musician, the feeling he portrayed while playing or singing on the track or piece will be on the recording if recorded well, it is then up to the engineer to attempt to design equipment to be able to allow this through unhindered to the best of their ability.

Got it yet, or do you need me to explain further.
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All the engineer can do is design an amp to distort the original signal as little as possible.

Beyond that you are simply having another "subjective" moment.

Audio reproduction is engineering, there is nothing mystical, magical or emotional about it.
 
Ragaman said:
I agree, though not always successful, I have experienced amps costing a 5th of the price of some that allow though the signal with emotion in tact, some just restrain it or sterilize it which goes full circle on the argument of design, does creating the "so called" perfect piece of equipment really allow us to enjoy the original intent of the musician, there is obviously more to it than just perfect measurement.

What is ironic regarding this thread is, most designers do their final analisis using their god given tools, their ears.
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In which case why dont they hear these problems allegedly caused by the mains and either re design to eliminate or supply a funky mains cable?
 
BE718 said:
All the engineer can do is design an amp to distort the original signal as little as possible.

Beyond that you are simply having another "subjective" moment.

Audio reproduction is engineering, there is nothing mystical, magical or emotional about it.
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Exactly. Ragaman simply doesn't understand that designing amplifiers is all about engineering.
 
Ragaman said:
Start from the left & move right along the sentence, this may help you to understand the post more clearly.

There really is no need to get so stressed, it's only a cable thread, it's just a bit of fun to read while enjoying music, shake it out & relax, deep breaths, in.........& out, remember to say the words re on inhale, then lax on exhaling.

Did I miss the test result or can you point me to a post.
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:):):):)
 
adamk said:
This one is a regular in these mains cable threads- can anyone actually name and shame these poorly designed products ?
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Over the years I (and others) have heard changes with mains cables with this equipment.

Plinius, Perreaux, Naim (various) Ming DA, Cambridge (CD) ARCAM (cd)
VTL, Line Magnetic, MF, among others.

Which, if any of these are poorly designed?

Mr ED
 
Errol said:
Over the years I (and others) have heard changes with mains cables with this equipment.

Plinius, Perreaux, Naim (various) Ming DA, Cambridge (CD) ARCAM (cd)
VTL, Line Magnetic, MF, among others.

Which, if any of these are poorly designed?

Mr ED
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Obviously all of them if you insist they are negatively affected by normal varying mains conditions.

Its not me who is claiming they hear these deficiencies.

Its a bizarre world the one of the audiophile. One where obvious design deficiencies are thought of as some kind of virtue.
 
BE718 said:
Obviously all of them if you insist they are negatively affected by normal varying mains conditions.

Its not me who is claiming they hear these deficiencies.

Its a bizarre world the one of the audiophile. One where obvious design deficiencies are thought of as some kind of virtue.
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So if we have heard differences with cables over the years on a wide range of equipment they are (according to your postings ) all poorly designed?
All of them?
 
Errol said:
So if we have heard differences with cables over the years on a wide range of equipment they are (according to your postings ) all poorly designed?
All of them?
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You seem to be struggling with this. Its your claim, not mine. You are saying they all have a design defficiency.

You are saying they are negatively affected by a subtle variations in the mains conditions. This variation is a given and normal. As mains conditions will vary in every installation and even throughout the day, the items you identified will have variable and unpredictable performance as a result.

Why do you think that is a design virtue?

If it were the case that this problem could be solved by the simple addition of a funky mains lead, why dont the manufacturers supply one?
 
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