Exactly.
That was going to be my question too, before I saw your response.
A successful commercial design doesn't actually dictate an impeccable engineering solution.
We should define successful.
Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part II: Electric Boogaloo
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Exactly.
That was going to be my question too, before I saw your response.
A successful commercial design doesn't actually dictate an impeccable engineering solution.
We should define successful.
Lee T
pfm Member
One which delivers sound unhindered while delivering enough power to allow your speakers to work as they should.
I doubt either has designed & built such a beast but they do enjoy talking about it, In fact I would edge my bets they are not alone here.
I have built amps, but it couldn't be less relevant.
This is so straw man it beggars belief.
The point in question was some claim that the amplifiers they use, or have used, are sensitive to subtle changes in mains conditions. Using certain mains leads allegedly improved this.
This unequivocally means the amps have a design deficiency. This is simple logic as mains conditions vary from installation to installation and throughout the day. It has to be a design consideration therefore that they should cope with these normal operating conditions.
If they do not, they have a design deficiency. You appear to see this sort of sensitivity as some kind of virtue. It is not.
Julf
Facts are our friends
Ah, in that case the answer is "yes, several".
This is the point though, the amps you refer to as "improved" by certain mains cables are hindered by the fact that they are sensitive (in a negative way) to subtle mains condition variations.
Julf
Facts are our friends
And drives a BMW?
You are correct it looks like I mis-read. However the solution was to promote a better lower resistance contact, which is perfectly reasonable in itself, but it need not be expensive to engineer.
adamdea
You are not a sound quality evaluation device
the message reads "please move your barbeque somewhere safer"
rn82497
pfm Member
So we all agree this worth while from an engineer perspective. Good - we're making progress.
Expensive is of course subjective / relative.
Given the limit numbers produced - and the quality of the systems they are used in - I don't think a Naim PowerLine as at all expensive.
So we all agree this worth while from an engineer perspective. Good - we're making progress.
Expensive is of course subjective / relative.
Given the limit numbers produced - and the quality of the systems they are used in - I don't think a Naim PowerLine as at all expensive.
How much is it? I suspect it is very expensive for the amount of engineering and component costs that go into it. I remember (a long time ago) borrowing a HiCap and cracking it open only to discover (from memory) a very basic LM317 T03 voltage regulator circuit. I laughed and took it back to the dealer saying thanks but no thanks, not for that price. Built my own very inexpensively.
Progress? I have no issue with engineering based on proven science.
EDIT:
Just picked myself off the floor, been rolling around laughing. I found the price.
rn82497
pfm Member
So you borrowed a product from a dealer. You 'cracked' opened it up. Noted the design. Then took it back to the dealer. Then built your own copy.
Interesting code of ethics ....
No it wasnt a copy, it was a superior design.
Well it was really more curiosity than anything else, but I was very disapointed at Naims very ordinary circuit. I actually think what they were charging for this electronics student design was a bit of a piss take hence my rejection of the idea of parting with cash for it.
I moved on from Naim many, many years ago. Better sound found elsewhere and no cynical endless upgrade path specifically designed to keep people coming back fod more. What was it you said about ethics?
So you think 500 quid for their basic mains lead is not expensive?
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
I can't be sure now, I'm afraid. But I think I read it in DIN documents some decades ago around the time I had to work on maintaining the development of the old Armstrong 600 series. So back in the 1970s I think.
Suffolk Tony
Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment.
A while ago then. Naim don't use 317s in HiCaps any more.
raysablade
pfm Member
The Powerline concept intrigues me; particularly now that, after many years of it not being so, it has become recommended upgrade for my NAP200.
I guess i understand the idea that high end power amplifier costing more than a small car "deserves" something more than the kettle lead that sufficed for decades, but there is also a clear implication that Naim's higher end kit is so sensitive to minor fluctuations in the mains supply that it requires added protection from them.
That's never made sense to me. Especially when, as i noted earlier, my NAP200 ploughs happily on on through flickering lights that indicate a huge variation in the current.
I guess i understand the idea that high end power amplifier costing more than a small car "deserves" something more than the kettle lead that sufficed for decades, but there is also a clear implication that Naim's higher end kit is so sensitive to minor fluctuations in the mains supply that it requires added protection from them.
That's never made sense to me. Especially when, as i noted earlier, my NAP200 ploughs happily on on through flickering lights that indicate a huge variation in the current.
misterdog
Not the canine kind
One which allows the manufacturer to later convince you that you require an expensive aftermarket mains cable to obtain ultimate SQ from the product which you have purchased.
Allegedly...
Then some 'lifters' to keep them off the floor..
Tony Lockhart
Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
Endless upgrade path? No, there is a limit.
Another poster going on and on against Naim. They're still in business, which is better than many companies. Better? Maybe, but probably just different. Plenty of people on this forum have tried 'better' only to return. A bit like emigrating to Oz. Some prefer, some hate it, neither choice is wrong, right or better.
What is THE most expensive 'hifi' mains lead? I bet it's orders of magnitude more expensive than anything from Naim.
Another poster going on and on against Naim. They're still in business, which is better than many companies. Better? Maybe, but probably just different. Plenty of people on this forum have tried 'better' only to return. A bit like emigrating to Oz. Some prefer, some hate it, neither choice is wrong, right or better.
What is THE most expensive 'hifi' mains lead? I bet it's orders of magnitude more expensive than anything from Naim.
Lee T
pfm Member
What are your thoughts on regenerators, surely these too are a waste of cash as any well designed amp should be able to cope with fluctuations in the power supply. I read a great post a little earlier from whatsnext, it's an absolute gem.
FWIW I see no virtue in poor design.
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