Me.
What the feck's going on there? You do know that stands come in different heights? Did you nick those from a lorry somewhere?
AVI's new floorstanders and subs or three way in two boxes (part II)
- Thread starter Hoopsontoast
- Start date
- Status
What the feck's going on there? You do know that stands come in different heights? Did you nick those from a lorry somewhere?
DSJR
Between us and them
It sounds like you need to get yourself a pair of 100's again
I've had sixteen years to wean myself away and the 20SL pro's just didn't have the same magic, although they were clearer than *my* 100A's in the mid (and the passive Harbeth P3ESR's were better all-round again than my 20 SLPros as long as volume wasn't taken too high).
All in the past now and in another life
Apologies Bub, I don't wish to troll!
Cereal Killer
432
You're more than welcome to have a listen to my 25A's Dave. I know two guys who've moved from (current spec) 100ASL's to 25A's. I know they cannot do the outright SPL and scale the 100's can but they really are rather special in a domestic mid-field setup.
PS, did you know ATC arn't far away from releasing a whole new (domestic) active range to go in their entry series?
PS, did you know ATC arn't far away from releasing a whole new (domestic) active range to go in their entry series?
Very interesting. Any more details?
Cereal Killer
432
No, it's just what Gary at Audio Emotion told me. That was when i was looking, back in Feb. He said it might be worth my while waiting before ordering the 25's... but patience is a virtue I'm not good with.
Greg
2t5b
Clear!
Looks like Spacey and I share the same dealer. Audio Emotion are very good with me and we managed to sort out an agreement to everyones satisfaction.
In my case it was an easy choice. I know what ATC100s can and cannot do so I went with what I know but tweaked things a bit to accommodate the towers. Scale and power is what I value so the 25As probably not my cuppa. Deciding on a whole new ATC range would have just muddied things too much and make paperwork difficult for insurance. AVI never even got a look in as my gut feeling was: "here is an untrustworthy company" (which has now clearly shown to be the case).
Looking forward to seeing what they produce but not as a customer. Interested in the new ATC tweeters. Hell I may even upgrade one of my pairs, but that's unlikely if it needs a whole new baffle again?
In my case it was an easy choice. I know what ATC100s can and cannot do so I went with what I know but tweaked things a bit to accommodate the towers. Scale and power is what I value so the 25As probably not my cuppa. Deciding on a whole new ATC range would have just muddied things too much and make paperwork difficult for insurance. AVI never even got a look in as my gut feeling was: "here is an untrustworthy company" (which has now clearly shown to be the case).
Looking forward to seeing what they produce but not as a customer. Interested in the new ATC tweeters. Hell I may even upgrade one of my pairs, but that's unlikely if it needs a whole new baffle again?
Cereal Killer
432
IIRC - Bob Polley told me the new HF drivers would be retro fitable. The R&D is complete, the prototypes are working fine and the 200/300 are already being shipped with them in place, all they were waiting for was the 25mm diaphragm material to be mass produced so they can crack on:
PS - i like both Mark and Gary. Good guys who always seem to come up trumps with the best deals and they try to understand your needs, rather than their wants.. and they're only a 2-3 hours drive away, which is close .. for me!!
PS - i like both Mark and Gary. Good guys who always seem to come up trumps with the best deals
and they try to understand your needs, rather than their wants.. and they're only a 2-3 hours drive away, which is close .. for me!!Ash,
Please do not dismiss what I am about to write as "on a mission", "AVI hater", etc. - I want to correct some errors for the benefit of all. Not least yourself, as you make these "errors" repeatedly, and I would like to see you present your specs without challenge (which you could do if you published some real measurements and data, instead of theoretical numbers). I worry hat your design engineer does not correct you, it makes me wonder if he is as competent as his reputation suggests.
The instantaneous power that your speakers are capable of is easiest measured by getting an oscilloscope shot of the voltage and the current in the scenario given above. The power is the {voltage x in-phase current} at this point. Most scopes can show you this value, along with the rms current, which would be useful to provide a true value for the ADM's. Again, I'm surprised and worried that your designer hasn't made these measurements during development. Development consists of setting you target specs; designing a circuit/system to achieve such (or compromise on actual specs); then crucially, measuring and documenting what you have actually produced. This is important for many resons, including meeting various standards. Which standards do your products meet? Did you skip this part of the process? I don't believe you did, so you know it is impossible for your amplifier to deliver 500W even for microseconds. Please cease from your misleading declarations.
Precisely. Except I would rather see some plots of test results than read the odd figure which are irrelevant or wrong, as you repeatedly do. Producing plots of typical units or individual units means that those who are able to can make an informed decision about the capabilities, but it also reassures every potential cutomer that the design (and production) processes are rigorous and correct. The product hasn't been designed purely based on theoretical calculations, data sheets from chip manufacturers, and blind luck. This is not the way to produce any kind of quality product.
I'm disappointed that you take such offence to the feedback you are getting here; I don't think you can say it is "bile" (except in the odd case, which is regrettable). Look at it more as a way of testing the reaction to your sales techniques with a certain part of your market (a focus group perhaps?). PF's are perhaps more informed than "non-hifi" people with regard to the technical side of these products, and also have very sensitive foo detectors. You should use this feedback in a positive way to improve your marketing techniques
Sorry for the long post,
Best Regards,
Mort
Please do not dismiss what I am about to write as "on a mission", "AVI hater", etc. - I want to correct some errors for the benefit of all. Not least yourself, as you make these "errors" repeatedly, and I would like to see you present your specs without challenge (which you could do if you published some real measurements and data, instead of theoretical numbers). I worry hat your design engineer does not correct you, it makes me wonder if he is as competent as his reputation suggests.
Is it good design practice to use the end-stop of the amplifier's ability to protect the drivers? This end-stop will vary depending on a number of factors (variation in components, frequency being output, supply voltage, etc).
No, volts only tells you the voltage, nothing else. Why do you use volts to measure power? the unit of power is watts. Energy would be ok, but confusing, SPL would be a good way of describing system output in this case, but volts is just wrong. IF your designer agrees with you on this, please ask him to explain how you can use it when the impedance of the speaker and therefore the current and power is so dependent on frequency. By the way, how stable is the output supply voltage? we saw in the youtube videos that it isn't stable at all.
And a decent designer would have done this in the lab, so show us the figures if you think Andyg is wrong.
Irrelevant to the discussion, but still incorrect, the wattage as you use it (instantaneous peaks) is altered, but the moving coil meter has a heavy filter applied to protect the mechanism and make it easy to read.
This is a lie, Ashley, you have used the unloaded supply voltage (50V) and the DC resistance of the coil (~5ohms) to arrive at 500W (V^2/R). The scenario would be: dead silence to get the DC bus at max volts (which will be lower than the "unloaded voltage" anyway), followed by a max. output of DC (i.e. the top transistor is switched hard to the + rail). You are conveniently ignoring 1. The bus will collapse with the load (as seen in the video), so you won't have 50V at the speaker; and 2. It isn't DC because the instantaneous edge will be at a frequency limited by the capabilities of the amp (unknown to anybody it appears, but should be greater than 20kHz). At this frequency, the impedance of the speaker is much higher than the 5ohm used to arrive at 500W. It clearly isn't capable of that, the power it is capable of, however, will have an extremely high level of distortion, because you have no limiting circuitry and rely on the amp hitting it's end-stops, so the supply will flap about like crazy, making the output not just clip, but distort in all sorts of ways. At ahat output power does the suplly ripple begin to intrude on the output voltage?
The instantaneous power that your speakers are capable of is easiest measured by getting an oscilloscope shot of the voltage and the current in the scenario given above. The power is the {voltage x in-phase current} at this point. Most scopes can show you this value, along with the rms current, which would be useful to provide a true value for the ADM's. Again, I'm surprised and worried that your designer hasn't made these measurements during development. Development consists of setting you target specs; designing a circuit/system to achieve such (or compromise on actual specs); then crucially, measuring and documenting what you have actually produced. This is important for many resons, including meeting various standards. Which standards do your products meet? Did you skip this part of the process? I don't believe you did, so you know it is impossible for your amplifier to deliver 500W even for microseconds. Please cease from your misleading declarations.
Now we are using decibels to describe output power? The method you describe to "measure" the difference between the 2 systems (going in to a shop and listening) is frankly ridiculous. Is this how your design process works? I admit that a listening test is vital but that should not be used to make measurements under any circumstances. You are undermining all vestiges of competence in your company and designer. Only in the Hi-Fi world would you get away with calling yourselves engineers, and your methods "Design".
These are decibel figures from the driver, and have no relation to the power (or even SPL) abilities of your system. You could drive the speaker with a 2W amplifier, but it wouldn't mean that 108dB is still valid. Your methods are dubious on a number of levels.
Precisely. Except I would rather see some plots of test results than read the odd figure which are irrelevant or wrong, as you repeatedly do. Producing plots of typical units or individual units means that those who are able to can make an informed decision about the capabilities, but it also reassures every potential cutomer that the design (and production) processes are rigorous and correct. The product hasn't been designed purely based on theoretical calculations, data sheets from chip manufacturers, and blind luck. This is not the way to produce any kind of quality product.
At last we have 2 numbers for the bass roll-off. Thank you. This gives me a better idea of how steep the cut-off is at the bottom end. So the power is halved between 47Hz and 40Hz. If we assume a linear slope, I reckon it will be (very roughly) -48dB at 20Hz. Can you post the frequency plot of the first pair please? At the very least it will show my maths to be wrong :-(
I'm disappointed that you take such offence to the feedback you are getting here; I don't think you can say it is "bile" (except in the odd case, which is regrettable). Look at it more as a way of testing the reaction to your sales techniques with a certain part of your market (a focus group perhaps?). PF's are perhaps more informed than "non-hifi" people with regard to the technical side of these products, and also have very sensitive foo detectors. You should use this feedback in a positive way to improve your marketing techniques
Sorry for the long post,
Best Regards,
Mort
Cereal Killer
432
Dunno. Loss adjuster okayed the total Friday. Walnut Tower = Standard finishes, in stock at ATC. Shipping to me and boxing up the old 100As for teardown, Amp Service and bits return on the same consignment... By end of this weeks coming? Reasonable?
I don't feel lucky but I'm okay with the recovery, it seems about right in the complex cost-to-shit-endured-ratio going on in my mind. BUT my project studio just got a huge huge kick up the arse monitoring wise which was not going to happen any time soon (remember I had ATC100 cabs all made?). Now, do I keep the Passive AE2s for near field or go for small Active Adams? Instinct says the latter and use the AE2s in the kitchen. But I can critically compare the two when I get the near fields sorted.
I don't feel lucky but I'm okay with the recovery, it seems about right in the complex cost-to-shit-endured-ratio going on in my mind. BUT my project studio just got a huge huge kick up the arse monitoring wise which was not going to happen any time soon (remember I had ATC100 cabs all made?). Now, do I keep the Passive AE2s for near field or go for small Active Adams? Instinct says the latter and use the AE2s in the kitchen. But I can critically compare the two when I get the near fields sorted.
Cereal Killer
432
Mort, you'll give yourself a hernia - chill.
- Status