And the minor matter that over 500 Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank since Oct 7th. Lost in a total that will be over 40,000 if and when Netanyahu has drunk enough blood. Netanyahu will never make peace under any conditions unless he is forced to and USA is too weak to force him.
War declared, Israel v Palestine...
- Thread starter Darmok
- Start date
-alan-
pfm Member
I'm curious - how could one differentiate between the two, and demonstrate / prove that it was not the former ?
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Israel must investigate reports of torture of Palestinian detainees: UN expert
The UN special rapporteur on torture, Alice Jill Edwards, has called on Israel to investigate multiple allegations of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees since October 7.Edwards said in a statement that she had received allegations of people being beaten up, kept blindfolded in cells and handcuffed for long periods.
She also received reports of some detainees being deprived of sleep, threatened with physical and sexual violence, insulted and exposed to humiliating acts, including “being photographed and filmed in degrading poses”.
“I am particularly concerned that this emerging pattern of violations, coupled with an absence of accountability and transparency, is creating a permissive environment for further abusive and humiliating treatment of Palestinians,” Edwards said.
“Those responsible at all levels, including commanders, must be held accountable, while victims have a right to reparation and compensation.”
Ahead of ICJ ruling, Israel intensifies assault on Gaza’s Rafah
An increase in Israeli military attacks reported across Gaza in the last 24 hours with residential buildings targeted.
Yes. Netanyahu needs a Hamas. If there wasn't one there already, well it made sense to create one. However, Iran was and remains their biggest supporter.
The corollary of this is worth stating clearly: Netanyahu worked alongside Iran in order to destabilise the peace between Palestine and Israel.
The Palestinians were starting to look too much like the decent human beings they are to the Israeli voters, so what could be better than a handing power over Gaza to a faction that lives down to every anti-Muslim prejuduce...
@-alan- true, the whole Gaza operation has been random, unplanned and indiscriminate, and because there is no evidence that any overall goal is being pursued, that would allow the chance that clearance is the plan. But what has been done is so random and purposeless, it's far likelier that there was never any mission except "go in there and rough them up" (IDF general order #1)... certainly not much has been done to find and free the hostages: an IDF unit even managed to shoot dead some of them who had been released.
This looks a lot more like the US in Vietnam than the Serbs in Yugoslavia - an ill-disciplined, over-armed force acting with no clear mission and no respect for the rights of the civilian population.
-alan-
pfm Member
Thanks Kris.
First time I've really paused to think about the difference. Difficult to separate when the end-result is the same to all effective purposes really.
I suppose the key to understanding which is it at play will be down to proving the existence of the genocidal intent and planning.
First time I've really paused to think about the difference. Difficult to separate when the end-result is the same to all effective purposes really.
I suppose the key to understanding which is it at play will be down to proving the existence of the genocidal intent and planning.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
But it isn't just ill discipline troops, though there seems plenty enough of them to suggest a structural failing. There are attacks of food trucks with Israeli uniformed guards looking on/participating.There are attacks on settlers in the West Bank with uniformed guards looking on/participating and there are the targeted attacks on humanitarian aid workers, journalists and arrests of Jewish intellectuals.
All of this is done with an outright denial from spokespeople for the Israeli government that any indiscriminate killing and starvation is going on at all
This is systemic
The bottom line is that the ICC has asked for an arrest warrant for the Israeli PM, not just some ill disciplined soldiers
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Systematic is what it isn't, it's "bomb here, shell there, tanks in here, but never achieve anything much". If the goal was clearance, then that has failed. But then, the whole thing is a failure once the first shell was fired. This is an unwinnable war for them.. as long as it continues, only the leaders of Hamas win; everyone else dies.
If you meant "systemic", then I agree.. the IDF is notorious for its lousy discipline and disregard for its stated general orders. I mentioned I had a friend who lived in Jerusalem for quite a while, working for the PA. They noticed that a surprisingly high number of the "Israeli" soldiers manning the checkpoints were Americans, working on some kind of contract/volunteer corps deal. These kids were trigger happy, had not a word of Arabic (or Hebrew), and were there just to harrass people. No proper army would have them (My friend suspected at least some had been DD'd out of the US Army, but still wanted to play with guns, so signed up). That lack of control over behaviour explains a lot of the smaller, on the ground, crimes more than the existence of a grand plan.
I don't in any way disagree that war crimes have been committed, or with where responsibility lies. The ICC warrant gets the who and what exactly right, I think, and although he'll never see trial for that charge, there's a good chance Netanyahu is going to prison at home anyway... he's keeping this whole horror show going because as soon as the Emergency Government disbands, he's going to lose the election that's due, and with that he'll lose protection from prosecution. This is the kind of lowlife we're talking about...
MVV
pfm Member
I agree with the turn this thread has taken. It is random, punishment supported by systemic, political and human failings. Not in any way coordinated or strategic. And in over 30 years of working with organisations I very, very rarely come across actual strategic thinking and coordinated action. I also don’t buy the idea that Netanyahu is keeping it going to save his skin. He believes the stories he tells himself.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
That's not why the aid is being denied, why the hospitals, schools and universities are destroyed, which is the principle allegation of war crimes and possible genocide against Netanyhu and his cronies. It is completely coordinated and strategic. It's also overseen on the ground and via spy satellite by the US and UK governments. It's far too easy to blame a few rogue tank commanders.
MVV
pfm Member
I just don’t and haven’t come across this strategic thing happening very much. Also no one is saying it is just a few rogue tank commanders. It is systemic, embedded, political and personal random carnage a bit like the Post office, the blood scandal, Hillsborough, Brexit and the NHS. Feels inappropriate but…
Enfield boy
pfm Member
I'll just leave this here.
petition.parliament.uk
Petition: For the United Kingdom to recognise the state of Palestine immediately
We believe that the Government needs to recognise the state of Palestine immediately. Otherwise we don't think they can legitimately say they back a two-state solution.
petition.parliament.uk
MVV
pfm Member
DoneI'll just leave this here.
Petition: For the United Kingdom to recognise the state of Palestine immediately
We believe that the Government needs to recognise the state of Palestine immediately. Otherwise we don't think they can legitimately say they back a two-state solution.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
It's not randon carnage I'm afraid. The US has its top general there...I just don’t and haven’t come across this strategic thing happening very much. Also no one is saying it is just a few rogue tank commanders. It is systemic, embedded, political and personal random carnage a bit like the Post office, the blood scandal, Hillsborough, Brexit and the NHS. Feels inappropriate but…
MVV
pfm Member
Ok mate, I will leave it there. I didn’t say it was random carnage I said: systemic, embedded, political and personal random carnage. People like to believe in a masterful guiding hand. I don’t.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Apologies, I did mean systemic. I can’t even blame autocorrect, it was 100% brain failure
gavreid
Pretty Words...
ICJ says Israel’s evacuation efforts are not sufficient
Nawaf Salam, the president of the International Court of Justice, says the humanitarian situation in Rafah has “deteriorated further” since the last court order in March.The humanitarian situation in Rafah is now classified as “disastrous”, he adds.
Nawaf Salam, the head of the International Court of Justice, says the court is not convinced that Israel’s evacuation efforts in Gaza are sufficient.
He said: “The court is not convinced that the evacuation efforts and the related measures that Israel affirms to have undertaken to enhance the security of civilians in the Gaza Strip and in particular those recently displaced from Rafah governorate sufficient to alleviate the immense risk, which the Palestinian population is exposed to as a result of the military offensive in Rafah.”
Court orders Israel to halt Rafah offensive
In his reading of the ruling, Judge Salam says the court orders Israel to halt its Rafah offensive.
The International Court of Justice (ICJ) said, to preserve evidence, Israel it must take measures to ensure unimpeded access into the Gaza Strip for inquirers [to open the Rafah border crossing for humanitarian assistance.]
The ICJ told Israel that it must submit a report on measures taken within one month.
‘Nothing left for us’: ICJ to rule on Israel’s offensive in Gaza’s Rafah
World Court is expected to rule at 13:00 GMT on an emergency request by South Africa to end Israel’s Rafah offensive.
Somafunk
pfm Member
They have to listen, otherwise it'll be Putin, Netanyahu and Gallant all holidaying on an island in the South China Sea for eternity