Vast Brexit thread merge part I

[Kraus]

ks.234 said: ↑
"But the unavoidable fact is that over half the population absolutely disagree."

tuga said: ↑
Where did you get those numbers?
Half the population?
It was only just over a third of the electorate that voted to Leave remember? 38%

ks.234 said:
True enough. But still over half who made a preference.

True - as in the opposite of false. Which your statement was not.

"For [the Master Horse] argued thus: "that the use of speech was to make us understand one another, and to receive information of facts; now, if any one said the thing which was not, these ends were defeated, because I cannot properly be said to understand him; and I am so far from receiving information, that he leaves me worse than in ignorance; for I am led to believe a thing black, when it is white, and short, when it is long." And these were all the notions he had concerning that faculty of lying, so perfectly well understood, and so universally practised, among human creatures."

Gulliver's Travels.
Jonathon Swift.

"... at the referendum Leave won 51.89 per cent of the vote and Remain won 48.11 per cent. The Electoral Commission reports that the overall turnout was 72.21 percent. These figures imply that 34.73 per cent of the entire electorate voted to Remain."

 

[Cav]

How can the leader of the official opposition not have a position on the biggest political issue in a generation? It’s smacks of low politics. Both Corbyn’s party and the Tories tried to game Brexit for narrow party political advantage and both of them are getting their hands burned. They’ll inevitably lose votes to other parties, ending the old two party system.

His position is clear, it is just some people don't like it or choose to lie about it.

 

[gavreid]

In parallel with the rise of Hitler.. we are now at the stage where only the Law stands against the Far Rght.

That's mistaken Mull. It's the organised left that stands in the way of fascism, not the courts. The importance of violence to fascism is in smashing the trades unions and any community resistance.

 

[Cav]

Cowardly revisionism IMO. This is a party absolutely paralysed by conflicting viewpoints and internal agendas. It has entirely failed to make the argument that white nationalism is wrong at the very point it is again marching on our streets. There is simply no excuse for that no matter what PR spin you attempt to dig up.

Everything you say has no basis in fact and is tainted by your personal animosity towards Corbyn and the Labour Party.

Frothing rants make you look as intelligent as the knuckle draggers you too often reference.

 

[gavreid]

Auntie Edie now up for the Government, seems to be making the same argument as Keen

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...08f9df5bdd6889#block-5d81fb178f08f9df5bdd6889

'Lady Hale, the president of the court, intervenes. She says her computer isn’t working. So, she tells Eadie, if he starts citing documents, she may be in trouble.'

Tragedy turning to farce...

 

[Dave H.]

Swinson isn't any better—she says she wants to stop Brexit, but won't work with Labour to not split the remain vote. Listening to her yesterday, I got the impression is that what she really wants is to be able to say she increased the number of LD MPs. Stopping Brexit appears to be a secondary issue.

I’ve come to the conclusion that this is the core of it. There’s plenty of Realpolitik involved, even though it seems absent. More LD MPs is the goal, and the collateral damage of facilitating a Johnson government and a hard Brexit (at minimum) is a price she and the LD strategists have decided they’re ok with paying.

There’ll be furrowed brows and gnashing of teeth at the ready to placate the faithful when the price gets paid, of course. But they know what they’re doing. Giving ideological purity as the motive is just window dressing, much as it is for Johnson et al.

The suggestion that all of this is something like jockeying for position in an inevitable hung parliament is just 2015 all over again. But this time with knowledge of the probable result.

 

[gavreid]

Written submission gives previous examples of political prorogations, but the examples are in war time and at the onset of the Wall St Crash

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...08f30dc5bbd832#block-5d82037b8f08f30dc5bbd832

 

[wacko]

Which makes Swineson's current ego trip very odd. Any logic would tell her that a coalition, or at least a pact in a GE, is far more important.

The UK's capacity for creating the perfect storm continues.

 

[Barrymagrec]

It is unfortunate that at this time of extreme change and turmoil we have, with very few exceptions, some of the most inept* leading politicians in living memory.

* I use the term "inept" to avoid undue bad language - feel free to change to your preference.

 

[jackbarron]

Swineson has ruled out working with the Tories and Labour for a simple reason - it amplifies the Lib Dem stance of revoking Article 50.

The LDs could pick up a lot of Remain votes from both of the major Parties. However Swineson is also shooting the LDs in the head by refusing to work with Corbyn or, Marx help us, Johnson.

Swineson might have already talked to Corbyn about the working together and he refused to do so, due to the Lib Dem's plan to revoke Article 50. The latter is after all the iast thing he and paymaster general Len McCluskey want.

Jack

 

[gavreid]

Lord Kerr raises the issue again of a year long prorogation. It cannot be a proper interpretation that Parliament only sits at the invitation or the discretion of Government, surely. They're asking if the Monarch has any discretion in the matter. This is why the SC has to step in, but will it...

 

[Mullardman]

That's mistaken Mull. It's the organised left that stands in the way of fascism, not the courts. The importance of violence to fascism is in smashing the trades unions and any community resistance.

I'd argue that your view, whilst not exactly wrong, places too much emphasis on a kind of marxist analysis which, since the trade unions were effectively emasculated years ago, doesn't really apply.

Of course the organised left is needed.. not on the streets yet, but in Parliament. It is pretty ineffective in Parliament at the moment and is allowing the braying Brexit mob to dictate the agenda, such that what passes for Govt., whether or not it truly wants 'no deal', is in effect deperately trying to placate the far right. The only difference being that it is doing so to save its own skin rather than that of Parliament. It is a very much more risky strategy than anyone in the BBC, for e.g., seems either aware of, or willing to admit.

 

[TheDecameron]

The UK's capacity for creating the perfect storm continues.

Entropy. We are sinking go our natural place in the international order, it’s just that a section of society can’t quite believe it and the paradox is that it’s their political representatives who are accelerating it. The Orwellian description is that we are becoming ‘leaders in global free trade’. Look at other former imperial powers- Turkey, Spain and Portugal.

 

[gavreid]

I'd argue that your view, whilst not exactly wrong, places too much emphasis on a kind of marxist analysis which, since the trade unions were effectively emasculated years ago, doesn't really apply.

Of course the organised left is needed.. not on the streets yet, but in Parliament. It is pretty ineffective in Parliament at the moment and is allowing the braying Brexit mob to dictate the agenda, such that what passes for Govt., whether or not it truly wants 'no deal', is in effect deperately trying to placate the far right. The only difference being that it is doing so to save its own skin rather than that of Parliament. It is a very much more risky strategy than anyone in the BBC, for e.g., seems either aware of, or willing to admit.

It's the same mistaken argument that Hitler was just elected, Fascism requires the violent supression of the opposition. Most anti-fascist groups around the world recognise that fascists have to be confronted on the streets before they get powerful. This was the lesson of the ANL in the 70s in defeating the NF.

 

[stephen bennett]

... defeating the NF.

The descendants of whom are now chanting "Boris is our man" in Parliament square.

Stephen

 

[gavreid]

Kuennsberg says Downing Street believes that the SC will say that prorogation is justicable and fire a warning shot. That would be a partial victory but nothing more

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...08f30dc5bbd90e#block-5d82113f8f08f30dc5bbd90e

 

[wacko]

Entropy. We are sinking go our natural place in the international order, it’s just that a section of society can’t quite believe it and the paradox is that it’s their political representatives who are accelerating it. The Orwellian description is that we are becoming ‘leaders in global free trade’. Look at other former imperial powers- Turkey, Spain and Portugal.

No problem with loss of Empire. And if we stop following USA into illegal wars that is fine too.
The EU may work better for some countries than others but IMO the UK had an excellent deal and was doing rather well.
Austerity policies were the problem.
Leaving the EU will just make almost everyone poorer than otherwise and probably provide an excuse to continue Tory Austerity...

 

[gavreid]

...and probably provide an excuse to continue Tory Austerity...

They'll manage that themselves in the age old way - cut taxes and then claim there's a hole in the public accounts...

 

[matthewr]

Swinson is doing a great job of making Corbyn and Labour look like the sensible ones. Her revoke policy has effectively ceded the centre ground to Labour who now look like the obvious (moderate to soft) Remain vote.

I suppose she is returning the favour in that after Corbyn's missteps allowed the lib dems to recover from their Tory coalition wilderness years, her revoke policy has allowed Labour to credibly get past their Shrodinger's Brexit ideas.

 

[TheDecameron]

The descendants of whom are now chanting "Boris is our man" in Parliament square.

Stephen

Did you see the guy wearing a full Spider-Man face mask? Presumably because he’s known to the CPS.
I took this on the 2017 march down Whitehall. Small numbers of pro-Brexit counter demonstrators trying to goad people, including loads of women and children peacefully heading down to Parliament Square. They’ve shifted tactics now to full on violence against the police and members of the public.

via Imgflip Meme Generator