advertisement


Vast Brexit thread merge part I

Status
Not open for further replies.
There is a woman I know, who used to work as a journalist. She now has an older people's group page on Facebook. It is successful and she is occasionally interviewed on the radio and by newspapers. What she has to say about Labour and Brexit is interesting.

"I WANT LABOUR TO WIN THE GENERAL ELECTION that is inevitably coming soon. I can't stand Tom Watson, he's been consistently undermining Corbyn from the beginning. BUT I really don't think that Corbyn and the Labour Party are going to win the Election with their present policy on Brexit. THE BIG FUDGE. Corbyn is focusing on stopping the No-Deal Brexit but in my opinion - and not just mine! - he and they need to stop being the party for Remainers and Leavers and get off the fence. Am hoping that the Party Conference this year will pass stuff around going into the General Election with a Remain agenda because otherwise they/we will lose. And Britain will descend even lower on all fronts - NHS, poverty, homelessness, mental health issues and so much more."

To me what the lady says about the big fudge makes complete sense.

Corbyn says he will stay neutral, in other words he will continue to sit on the fence. However he isn't really doing this. He says he wants is a sensible deal. That is not being neutral, far from it. This is Jeremy the con merchant in action again. I hope he gets called out on it at the Conference. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-sensible-brexit-deal-to-voters-in-referendum

Jack
 
TheDecameron said:
Ironies of Brexit, No.34.
The company that supplies the Boris buses is run by a N.Irish Brexit cheerleader and Brexit is about to put him out of business.
Click to expand...

Indeed ironic already. I notice the brexiteers are slow on pouncing on that post. Of course reality must be ignored wait for it to get buried and then start posting irrelevant gunk again!

It is all very simple back stop/suspension of parliament are all a ruse. There is no solution BJ is interested in except creating a situation where he might get a majority defending the people against the establishment. I hope whatever tactics used by LD's and Labour get them enough seats to coalesce with SNP and scupper them.

Link to study re impact on Irish beef farms

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...t-risk-in-no-deal-brexit-says-study-1.4020111
 
jackbarron said:
Corbyn says he will stay neutral, in other words he will continue to sit on the fence. However he isn't really doing this. He says he wants is a sensible deal. That is not being neutral, far from it. This is Jeremy the con merchant in action again. I hope he gets called out on it at the Conference. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-sensible-brexit-deal-to-voters-in-referendum

Jack
Click to expand...

A party divided against itself cannot stand. It must become all one thing, or all the other. Or fall.
 
I really think Corbyn's (neutral) position will play very badly with the electorate. It kind of reminds me of the Kinnock era whereby the LP twisted itself inside out over its policy towards Nuclear, the electorate never really understood it. Very difficult to sell a position to the population when the leader of the party is not seen to be committed to it.

Also, it feeds into the Corbyn dithering narrative which will be ruthlessly exploited by the Tories. This will probably be interpreted as an anti JC rant but this is not the case, just because posters on here understand LPs position doesn't mean the population at large will.

Allan Johnson just on R4 suggesting that Europe will not negotiate with a leader who will stay neutral on the outcome.

The SC is just a sideshow, will not change anything.
 
Woodface said:
I really think Corbyn's (neutral) position will play very badly with the electorate. It kind of reminds me of the Kinnock era whereby the LP twisted itself inside out over its policy towards Nuclear, the electorate never really understood it. Very difficult to sell a position to the population when the leader of the party is not seen to be committed to it.

Also, it feeds into the Corbyn dithering narrative which will be ruthlessly exploited by the Tories. This will probably be interpreted as an anti JC rant but this is not the case, just because posters on here understand LPs position doesn't mean the population at large will.
Click to expand...

The problem is he's f*ck*d either way. If he comes out in favour or either remain of leave he's potentially going to lose a lot of voters, if he remains uncommitted he'll lose different voters.
 
Woodface said:
Also, it feeds into the Corbyn dithering narrative which will be ruthlessly exploited by the Tories. This will probably be interpreted as an anti JC rant but this is not the case, just because posters on here understand LPs position doesn't mean the population at large will.
Click to expand...

Corbyn's position is for the Conference, the Party policy may yet change, and the right could prevail with a similar position to the LDs. Imo that would be a huge mistake.
 
Stunsworth said:
The problem is he's f*ck*d either way. If he comes out in favour or either remain of leave he's potentially going to lose a lot of voters, if he remains uncommitted he'll lose different voters.
Click to expand...
If that's the case he will be no better or worse off by adopting a fixed position. In his interview on Sky he would even say whether he was remain or leave.
 
gavreid said:
Corbyn's position is for the Conference, the Party policy may yet change, and the right could prevail with a similar position to the LDs. Imo that would be a huge mistake.
Click to expand...
Then he may have been better off keeping his mouth shut until after conference? I appreciate he is in a tricky position but he appears to have chosen the wrong option.
 
Woodface said:
Then he may have been better off keeping his mouth shut until after conference? I appreciate he is in a tricky position but he appears to have chosen the wrong option.
Click to expand...

I think he's got it about right without making further damaging concessions to his rightwing
 
jackbarron said:
Corbyn says he will stay neutral, in other words he will continue to sit on the fence. However he isn't really doing this. He says he wants is a sensible deal. That is not being neutral, far from it. This is Jeremy the con merchant in action again. I hope he gets called out on it at the Conference. https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-sensible-brexit-deal-to-voters-in-referendum
Click to expand...

TL/DR - I don't think Corbyn is trying to con the electorate - I think he's conning himself (again) in the belief that we can somehow come out of Brexit without leaving a sizeable chunk of the electorate (>40% ?) feeling swindled.

Longer version -

I wouldn't be quite so cynical about Corbyn's motives, but I still think his words and actions will backfire. I sense that he genuinely does want to "get out of the way of the decision" in a referendum, and not be seen to be pushing an agenda, and in theory this might be helpful in reuniting the country. However I think this will be played as "scheming and lack of conviction" by political rivals.

It also doesn't seem entirely genuine. Let's say Labour somehow forms a government after a GE and negotiates a less hard Brexit deal with the EU that will be less damaging economically. Are we to seriously believe the Labour leader will then tell the electorate - "here's your choices. I'm not saying which one I think is better, it's entirely up to you". Surely that will be perceived as the ultimate example of blowing with the wind as opposed to leading.

Plus it overlooks that Labour's softer Brexit deal will immediately be labeled Brexit in name only (BrINO) by the right wing press and will do nothing to quell the anger of the Brexiters (a majority of whom now want a hard Brexit, if you believe the polls). They'll see the second referendum as BrINO vs remain and be furious - no wounds healed.
 
Woodface said:
If that's the case he will be no better or worse off by adopting a fixed position. In his interview on Sky he would even say whether he was remain or leave.
Click to expand...

To win an election he doesn't just need to retain as many of the Labour voters as possible from the last one, he needs to attract new ones. Offering a referendum won't attract leave voters as they'd be a chance of leave not happening (I'm generalising of course, polls show there are UKIP/Brexit supporters who want to remain in the EU). So he's trying to attract remain voters, even if he can't say that publicly.

I have a feeling he'll get skewered by an Andrew Neil type of interviewer, "It's a simple question Mr Corbyn, why doesn't the Labour Party have a position on the most serious constitutional crisis of your lifetime?"
 
gavreid said:
I think he's got it about right without making further damaging concessions to his rightwing
Click to expand...
So is remain a right wing proposition within Labour? I think his postition probably plays better with the membership, perhaps? I honestly don't know anymore.
 
Stunsworth said:
To win an election he doesn't just need to retain as many of the Labour voters as possible from the last one, he needs to attract new ones. Offering a referendum won't attract leave voters as they'd be a chance of leave not happening (I'm generalising of course, polls show there are UKIP/Brexit supporters who want to remain in the EU). So he's trying to attract remain voters, even if he can't say that publicly.

I have a feeling he'll get skewered by an Andrew Neil type of interviewer, "It's a simple question Mr Corbyn, why doesn't the Labour Party have a position on the most serious constitutional crisis of your lifetime?"
Click to expand...
It hasn't taken an Andrew Neil interview to expose the fallacy of neutral. I just don't see how it can play on the proverbial doorstep.

Corbyn is waving a blank placard;)
 
Stunsworth said:
To win an election he doesn't just need to retain as many of the Labour voters as possible from the last one, he needs to attract new ones. Offering a referendum won't attract leave voters as they'd be a chance of leave not happening (I'm generalising of course, polls show there are UKIP/Brexit supporters who want to remain in the EU). So he's trying to attract remain voters, even if he can't say that publicly.

I have a feeling he'll get skewered by an Andrew Neil type of interviewer, "It's a simple question Mr Corbyn, why doesn't the Labour Party have a position on the most serious constitutional crisis of your lifetime?"
Click to expand...
A simple question to which there's a simple answer: it's right to let the people have the final say.

The moment Cameron decided to introduce a referendum into a parliamentary democracy with no written constitution everything got tied up into a knot and it can't be untied. Who takes precedence, the people or parliament? The government or the courts? Who does an MP represent, her constituents or her party or her voters? Who does a leader represent?

The Lib Dems thought they could cut the knot: Just revoke A50! And immediately tied themselves up in more knots, since in reality they'll have to support a referendum if they want to stop Brexit, but won't have a mandate to implement a Leave outcome: their support for a referendum can only be offered in bad faith.

Corbyn's knot is this: as a party leader, he has to represent his party, and his voters, who on the whole think that leaving is bad. But as PM he will have to represent the will of the people, as expressed by the result of the 2nd referendum. That is, again, a knot caused by the introduction of a referendum into a representative democracy and he can't magic it away.

His imperfect solution is, as party leader, to set the conditions for the referendum, and as PM (in waiting) to unequivocally give the people priority over parliament. He's consensus-builder in the first case, honest broker in the second. Both roles to which he's well suited.

The strategy seems sensible to me. I think, partly thanks to the Lib Dems and partly due to Labour sticking to their plan, things have aligned quite nicely and the bomb is now in a position where it can be defused.
 
Woodface said:
It hasn't taken an Andrew Neil interview to expose the fallacy of neutral. I just don't see how it can play on the proverbial doorstep.

Corbyn is waving a blank placard;)
Click to expand...
I'll be happy to explain the position on the doorstep, if it's what we end up with: "Brexit is bigger than any leader, bigger than any party: Corbyn's job will be to make sure the decision of the people is respected. Now, about these cuts..."
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


advertisement


Back
Top