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Vast Brexit thread merge part I

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tuga said:
Who cares. Brexit is fundamentally a self-harming stupid project. It's so difficult to implement that the Union and the EU have already wasted bucketloads of money and haven't moved an inch...
It should never have been put to the people, because they're clueless and easily mislead by the biased right-wing media, which incidentally is owned by those with vested interests not in the public good but their on pockets.

Revoke I say.
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You might be absolutely right in everything you say there. I might absolutely agree with everything you say there. Most of pfm might absolutely agree with everything you say there. But the unavoidable fact is that over half the population absolutely disagree.

The only democratic way forward is with a Referendum that enables people to make a democratic choice about the future.

Revoke is undemocratic.
 
A couple of things.

maxflinn said:
If there's a GE before Brexit then any party wishing to remain ought to work with any other party that also wants another referendum in order to stop the Tories/Brexit Party from winning...
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Should that include Labour not fielding candidates where it's a Tory v Lib-Dem fight (and the Lib-Dems do the same in Tory v Labour seats)?

The Lib-Dem plan, as I understand it, is to revoke article 50 if they win the election, and campaign for a referendum if they don't. Since we know that they aren't going to win the election a referendum campaign it's going to be. The 'revoke article 50' is just an appeal to the Lib-Dem base, the reality is it can be ignored.

I wouldn't rule out the Lib-Dems being prepared to work with Labour despite what they've said, though I wouldn't expect it to be a formal coalition like they had with the Tories, once bitten twice shy.
 
cooky1257 said:
I try not to let my judgement of leave voters be coloured by the more extreme brexiteer behaviour/utterances. We don't have 17 million knuckle dragging fascists in the country...
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You don't need 17 million knuckle dragging fascists to start the process, that's the problem.
 
Stunsworth said:
You don't need 17 million knuckle dragging fascists to start the process, that's the problem.
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And preventing brexit will what, spirit them away, make them see sense, convert them to liberalism? The referendum didn't create fascists it merely picked the scab that revealed what seething bigotry and resentments lay beneath. I don't believe a single word the Lib Dems say, opportunists with zero integrity.
 
tuga said:
The LibDems won't be able to get a majority on their own.

They will need the SNP, the PC and the Greens to form a government, and they'll almost certainly need Labour's MP votes too. We'll probably only get a referendum, though one without no-deal as option.
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This is all moot if the Tories/Brexit Party win.

The Tories/Brexit Party have a much better chance of winning if the LDs don't cooperate with Labour in a strategic way with the goal of ensuring their parties prevail in marginal seats against the Tories.

The LDs will not discuss this with Labour.

This is making a hard Brexit more likely.
 
Tony L said:
I don’t agree. To my eyes Brexit represents exactly the same white nationalism, scapegoating and division that led to the rise of fascism in the early 1930s. The alarm bells are deafening, the flag-waving identical. This is history repeating and any credible party should recognise the signals and take the most forceful moral stance imaginable against it. Labour have entirely failed to do that. The party is cowardly and inward-looking. It is missing in inaction. It is a disgrace.
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Combating nationalism and fascism by means that are fundamentally undemocratic will only feed the nationalists and fascists further. Continually name calling over half the population will only drive them closer to the nationalists and fascists. Using the language of abuse will only take us closer to entrenched positions and conflict. If history teaches us anything it is that fascism brows from social conflict.

The LD position is both undemocratic and inward looking in that it only looks to party gains.

Labour’s position is outward looking in that it seeks resolution rather than conflict. And it’s the only democratic way forward.
 
How can the leader of the official opposition not have a position on the biggest political issue in a generation? It’s smacks of low politics. Both Corbyn’s party and the Tories tried to game Brexit for narrow party political advantage and both of them are getting their hands burned. They’ll inevitably lose votes to other parties, ending the old two party system.
 
ks.234 said:
Labour’s position is outward looking in that it seeks resolution rather than conflict. And it’s the only democratic way forward.
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Cowardly revisionism IMO. This is a party absolutely paralysed by conflicting viewpoints and internal agendas. It has entirely failed to make the argument that white nationalism is wrong at the very point it is again marching on our streets. There is simply no excuse for that no matter what PR spin you attempt to dig up.
 
Let's pretend we stop Brexit following a resounding no vote in the second referendum, what does the panel think will become of white nationalism?
Given the way the Lib Dems were complicit in creating the white underclass-the recruiting grounds for the fascists, its utter folly and naive to think they could undo theirs and the Tory devastation caused by austerity.
 
Tony L said:
Cowardly revisionism IMO. This is a party absolutely paralysed by conflicting viewpoints and internal agendas. It has entirely failed to make the argument that white nationalism is wrong at the very point it is again marching on our streets. There is simply no excuse for that no matter what PR spin you attempt to dig up.
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The Labour Party is conflicted because it has tried to retain centrists with their own internal and in many cases undemocratic agenda.

When it comes to making arguments against ‘white nationalism’ I’d compare Swinson’s voting record with Corbyn’s to see who comes out best there.

Subjecting the 52% to constant bile and vilification is the same tactics as those marching on our streets and only likely to swell their number.

I am not digging up PR spin, I’m putting forward an opinion. I thought that’s what this forum was for.
 
TheDecameron said:
But wot about the ‘hard centre’ as well as ‘the extremists on both sides’? Jeremy won’t be able to find a dead branch to perch on!
There’s no Brexit that will preserve jobs and living standards to the same standard as EU membership, so what’s his game?
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The "hard centre" have been offered a home with the Lib Dems: anyone whose deepest desire is to take us back to the coalition years can live out that fantasy with them, while the No Dealers live out theirs with the Tories and/or the Brexit Party.

The established parliamentary parties are not in a position to lead the country out of this: the plebiscite was a mistake, but it's now clear that the mess it created can only be resolved by another. Responsible leadership here consists in establishing the conditions that minimise the risk involved.

The Lib Dems plan to back a referendum between remain and no deal, while at the same time declaring that they'd rather just revoke the whole thing, and might not respect a Leave result. Those are the kind of conditions that maximise the risk of no deal.

Labour are planning a referendum between soft Brexit and remain, where the leadership steps aside and promises to respect the result. That in my opinion will take the wind out of the antiestablishment sails and give remain the best chance, while ensuring that the worst that can happen is soft Brexit. It seems to me to be the right way to do this.
 
Tony L said:
Cowardly revisionism IMO. This is a party absolutely paralysed by conflicting viewpoints and internal agendas. It has entirely failed to make the argument that white nationalism is wrong at the very point it is again marching on our streets. There is simply no excuse for that no matter what PR spin you attempt to dig up.
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Zero justification for any of this. Local Labour groups have helped organise action against white nationalism on the streets (didn't see many Lib Dems), and the leadership has stood up against the hostile environment while Lib Dems waved it through and shook their heads sadly. Labour have also got us to a position where something more than posturing can be done about Brexit.
 
stephen bennett said:
SNIP

Swinson isn't any better—she says she wants to stop Brexit, but won't work with Labour to not split the remain vote. Listening to her yesterday, I got the impression is that what she really wants is to be able to say she increased the number of LD MPs. Stopping Brexit appears to be a secondary issue.

SNIP

Stephen
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Well, she did call for an EU referendum before it was even a twinkle in Cameron's eyes... :rolleyes:

But, yes, she does seem only interested in herself and party, as far as I can see.
 
I haven't done a full 'catch -up' this morning, but it seems to me that analyses of the assorted parties' positions are now almost irrelevant.

The battle now is not between parties, but between Brexiters/the Far Right and Parliament.

I do try not to simply label Brexiters as 'thick', but when I see some 'vox pop' moron on the BBC news, spitting out the words ''do away with Parliament.. move it to Birmingham and do away with it..' ..and yet going unchallenged.. then I'm deeply worried.

I agree with Tony that we are seeing a largely uninformed and frankly stupid electorate allowing themselves to be potentially robbed of their Parliamentary defence against extremism and dictatorship..in the name of some deeply flawed referendum.

In parallel with the rise of Hitler.. we are now at the stage where only the Law stands against the Far Rght. A few more 'Enemies of the People' headlines and we really could be in very, very deep shit.
 
Let’s face it, while better late than never, Labour’s Damascene conversion to a referendum is completely self-serving. They realise they and the Tories are holding either end of the same shitty stick and needed a way out. The credibility of their position will be tested as soon as there’s a GE. I personally hope they can form a government with other parties. The alternative- the Tories with assist from The Gammon Party is too horrific to contemplate.
 
ks.234 said:
Revoke is undemocratic.
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Unless there is a vote in parliament reversing the A50 decision (I.e. Miller works both ways).

The problem with it compared to a referendum is that it would leave the question unresolved and the country just as divided as it is now.
 
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