Vast Brexit thread merge part I
- Thread starter russel
- Start date
- Status
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Result! Johnson has now lost six votes in six days. No general election for the clown- he can sit in his soiled trousers a bit longer.
Tony L
Administrator
Lib Dems in ‘doing exactly the right thing rather than sitting on the fence’ shock. Who’d have thought it? If Labour had taken that position three years ago they might not be heading for what may well be their worst GE result in history!
maxflinn
pfm Member
By not working with Labour the Lib-Dems are essentially guaranteeing a Tory/Brexit Party win.
And this is 'doing the right thing'?
droodzilla
pfm Member
What’s more important to you:
1. Stopping Brexit?
2. Labour doing badly?
The LD position might be “the right thing” in the abstract but it blows the nascent but fragile anti-Conservative alliance sky-high. It might get them a few more seats but, elsewhere it will split the vote and gift seats to the Conservatives. Therefore, it massively increases the risk of an outright hard-right Conservative majority and a hard Brexit.
Labour could follow the LDs and do “the right thing” but that would place even more Lab/Con marginals in jeopardy with potentially the same outcome.
This is gesture politics at its most reckless and self-defeating.
But sure, as long as Labour get a good kicking it will be worth it, eh?
Last edited:
stephen bennett
Mr Enigma
Nick_G
pfm Member
If there is a General Election soon, then I may reluctantly vote Labour, as going on the history of previous GEs, they would appear to be the best way of opposing the Tories here. The Lib Dems have done well before, but not in the last election.
However, this brings me to the fact that the sat nav in the clown car has been hijacked by the far-right for too long, and the opposition has not done enough to protect our democracy. Carole Cadwalladr has a list of failures in this regard:
Failed to uphold rule of law.
Failed to demand authorities do their job.
Failed to ask questions in parliament.
Failed to take any notice of entire smorgasbord of criminality & interference
Failed to back DCMS committee's bid to hold Cummings to account.
Failed to back its call for public inquiry.
Failed to back its attempt to call Zuckerberg to parliament.
Failed to ask questions about Arron Banks & Russia.
Failed to demand answers from Farage
To which I would add:
Failed to publicly speak up and denounce the far-right
Failed to back Remain unequivocally right from the start
By doing the above, failed to protect jobs, livelihoods, and the economy
Failed to defend our reputation on the world stage
Failed to protect and stand up for minorities
Some of these are a result of the points on Carole's list. I really should be feeling good about voting Lbour, but because of the above it's with a heavy heart. We've had more effective opposition from Carole Cadwalladr herself, Led By Donkeys, and Gina Miller, to name a few.
I suspect had there not been these failures the Conservatives would have been brought down by now and we wouldn't be in this dangerous mess. I wonder why they happened?
However, this brings me to the fact that the sat nav in the clown car has been hijacked by the far-right for too long, and the opposition has not done enough to protect our democracy. Carole Cadwalladr has a list of failures in this regard:
Failed to uphold rule of law.
Failed to demand authorities do their job.
Failed to ask questions in parliament.
Failed to take any notice of entire smorgasbord of criminality & interference
Failed to back DCMS committee's bid to hold Cummings to account.
Failed to back its call for public inquiry.
Failed to back its attempt to call Zuckerberg to parliament.
Failed to ask questions about Arron Banks & Russia.
Failed to demand answers from Farage
To which I would add:
Failed to publicly speak up and denounce the far-right
Failed to back Remain unequivocally right from the start
By doing the above, failed to protect jobs, livelihoods, and the economy
Failed to defend our reputation on the world stage
Failed to protect and stand up for minorities
Some of these are a result of the points on Carole's list. I really should be feeling good about voting Lbour, but because of the above it's with a heavy heart. We've had more effective opposition from Carole Cadwalladr herself, Led By Donkeys, and Gina Miller, to name a few.
I suspect had there not been these failures the Conservatives would have been brought down by now and we wouldn't be in this dangerous mess. I wonder why they happened?
maxflinn
pfm Member
And once again.....if Labour had taken the current position of the Lib-Dems three years ago they’d have been slaughtered by the media and lost big in the election of 2017.
A Tory Brexit would have most likely already taken place.
I just don’t get how you can keep ignoring this?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
First, I don't think the LibDems are 'doing the right thing' because what the 'right thing' is, is very context dependent. If their stated position results in the re-election of the Tories, then no amount of doublethink can excuse it. There is a considerable basis for arguing that, at this very moment, the 'right thing' is to get behind Labour. Given the LibDem's pride in 'practical politics' I'm slightly surprised they refuse to even acknowledge this possibility.
And on your criticism of Labour's positioning, I do share your frustration, but I'm not blind to the simple political truth that a party is a bit like a supertanker. You can't change direction in an instant, and if you try, bits are likely to fall off and you'll do all sorts of collateral damage in the vicinity. I share Seanm and Drood's view that this needed careful management. As the opposition, and minority party, every vote is precious. Better to try to take hearts and minds on your journey than part company too early. All that said, I could wish any manoeuvre had been completed sooner.
Yes, Corbyn may in his heart of hearts tend to Euroscepticism, but he's a believer in democracy and the will of the majority. You can't just discard those principles for political expediency. The Tories have been doing exactly that, and look at the mess it has brought us to. Frankly, we need somebody operating the levers of power who respects the limits of that power, and genuinely believes in true democracy. Of all the potential leaders out there, I have to say Corbyn is ahead on points on this, and only the SNP team come anywhere close.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
At least we now understand what was in it for John Mann.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Heard him on yesterday's Radio 4 Today programme. Despicable creature. Felt very much like there has been a Tory sleeper agent embedded in Labour.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The only route for Johnson-Cummings-Farage now will be to further drive demands to shut down democracy and fan public disorder at the hands of the bald men with beer bellies in embarrassing trainers.
Tiny Roundheads Andrew Bridgen and Corporal Francois should mount a couple of miniature Shetland ponies and ride the Gammon lands while The Lord’s faithful servant, Steve Baker sets fire to crosses in town squares.
Tiny Roundheads Andrew Bridgen and Corporal Francois should mount a couple of miniature Shetland ponies and ride the Gammon lands while The Lord’s faithful servant, Steve Baker sets fire to crosses in town squares.
notaclue
pfm Member
Even if we end up crashing out, Farage will complain that Johnson has delivered the wrong sort of 'no deal'.
Stunsworth
pfm Member
I heard that too. Who said that members of the ERG don't have a sense of humour!
Tony L
Administrator
In answer to the first question; stopping Brexit, and I mean stopping it, not some unbearably naff Corbyn/McCluskey fence fudge. Just revoke A50 and remain as any alternate option makes us all worse off. The gammons have never been the Lib Dems’ issue, they are not a party riddled with ugly English nationalism so it is right for them to rise above it.
By saying that I agree the LDs need to play a very careful game here, they need to make their moral position (pro-EU/anti-Brexit) fundamentally clear, but also be pragmatic, i.e. if holding Corbyn/McCluskey to a second referendum with remain as the preferred option then they need to take it, but they also need assurance from a profoundly slippery Labour party that is what is on the table and the Labour party will unequivocally throw their weight behind a campaign to stay in the EU. The time for fudging and fence sitting is long over. The LDs will take mainly moderate Tory seats and they clearly know this, so their firm remain argument is right. If their overtly anti-Brexit stance is a threat to Labour then that is an issue for Labour to address with a clearer anti-Brexit/anti-English nationalist policy, not for the Lib Dems to worry about.
ff1d1l
pfm Member
Great post. Absolutely this.
Colin Barron
pfm Member
A poll of 2,103 people by BritainThinks, a research and strategy consultancy, suggests that Mr Johnson enjoys much stronger support than the leader of the Labour party. Some 30 per cent of those polled between August 30 and September 1 preferred the Tory leader as prime minister, compared with 14 per cent for Mr Corbyn.
Support for the Labour leader is strikingly bad by any historic comparison. Only 10 per cent of poll respondents believe that Mr Corbyn would be the “best to unite the country”, against 21 per cent for Mr Johnson. Perhaps most strikingly, the prime minister is also seen as the most likely to take the UK out of the EU, according to 46 per cent of respondents, against 16 per cent for Mr Farage and 4 per cent for Mr Corbyn. Among Leave voters, Mr Johnson is seen by 67 per cent to be the person most likely to deliver Brexit. Remainers see Ms Swinson as more likely to keep Britain in the bloc than Mr Corbyn. The Liberal Democrat leader was picked by 28 per cent of Remain-supporting respondents, compared with 20 per cent for Mr Corbyn.
Support for the Labour leader is strikingly bad by any historic comparison. Only 10 per cent of poll respondents believe that Mr Corbyn would be the “best to unite the country”, against 21 per cent for Mr Johnson. Perhaps most strikingly, the prime minister is also seen as the most likely to take the UK out of the EU, according to 46 per cent of respondents, against 16 per cent for Mr Farage and 4 per cent for Mr Corbyn. Among Leave voters, Mr Johnson is seen by 67 per cent to be the person most likely to deliver Brexit. Remainers see Ms Swinson as more likely to keep Britain in the bloc than Mr Corbyn. The Liberal Democrat leader was picked by 28 per cent of Remain-supporting respondents, compared with 20 per cent for Mr Corbyn.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
That’s what proved so damaging for Labour. They made it quite apparent they'd be the ones telling the public that they would decide which Brexit horse to ride (once they’d done the sums on their potential wins and losses in the Gammon constituencies). Then followed three years of vacillation so that one minute you thought you had understood their position then it was something different the next day. You will see the consequences of that ‘strategy’ at the GE, especially up here. We know what the Tories stood for and they’re getting the chop but Labour will get the same in Scotland because we didn’t have a ****ing clue what they stood for!
- Status