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Vast Brexit thread merge part I

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Woodface said:
The longer the public get to see the real BJ before a GE the better. Up until now they probably saw him as that funny politician off HIGNY. Soon or later the public will realise he is not fit for office
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This doesn't appear to be what is happening. Johnson's standing may have dropped to extraordinarily low levels among engaged "progressives" but the support for his party seems to have grown slightly among the disengaged, disenchanted and disillusioned if the polls are to be believed. If this continues a populist hard right conservative party lacking any sane policies may get a majority rather than just being the largest party in the coming election. Our best chance to avoid this may well be for Johnson's brexit credentials to be become battered enough for sufficient votes to shift back towards Farage and the brexit party. If brexit supporters were concerned about his fitness to govern in terms of competence rather than his nationality why would they be supporting brexit in the first place?
 
gary1064 said:
My mother voted to remain in the common market in 1975 but voted leave in 2016. She's not in favour of closer integration, but would welcome the return to (in her words) a "trading club". She was persuaded that the Norway option as touted during the campaign would deliver this, subsequently rebranded as "Common Market 2.0" if I recall correctly. She's appalled at the thought of a no-deal Brexit.

My father-in-law equally voted in (1975) and leave (2016). He wants "Britain to have a chance of being great again" (whatever that means), and desires the hardest possible Brexit. He's appalled at the thought of anything other than a no-deal Brexit.

We can't move on until what leave means is defined. If Parliament can't decide then surely it has to go back to the people?
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Yes, your anecdote exposes the myth of the 52% very succinctly and in real world terms.

The 52% is split, and however you spilt it, it ain’t 52% anymore
 
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ks.234 said:
Yes, your anecdote exposes the myth of the 52% very succinctly and in real world terms.
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And we shouldn’t forget the effective gerrymandering that took place in denying UK expats living in the EU a vote. They don’t get to vote in a GE, but that surely shouldn’t have been grounds to deny them a say in a decision which would affect them all so very fundamentally .
 
Clever - it stymies Bojo and Loathsomes plan to install a new yes-man speaker by pressuring all the newbie MPs who will not have worked out what to do if a new speaker had to be elected immediately after the election.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
And we shouldn’t forget the effective gerrymandering that took place in denying UK expats living in the EU a vote. They don’t get to vote in a GE, but that surely shouldn’t have been grounds to deny them a say in a decision which would affect them all so very fundamentally .
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Can’t agree there.
If they chose to leave - tough.
 
eternumviti said:
The only way that the EU will concede technical/alternative solutions is if it has no choice, which is in a no deal scenario. You can then guarantee that such solutions will then suddenly materialise, as if by magic.
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Ah - like they did as the 31st March deadline approached?
 
tonerei said:
Great to see the Tory MP's showed their true class by remaining seated whilst he received a standing ovation from the other side.
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It depends - if Bercow was indeed strongly leaning towards Labour, as he was not supposed to be but was nevertheless often accused of, I sort of understand the Tories being happy to see him go.
 
Cheese said:
It depends - if Bercow was indeed strongly leaning towards Labour, as he was not supposed to be but was nevertheless often accused of, I sort of understand the Tories being happy to see him go.
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Indeed. They would have been accused of hypocrisy if they had joined in. Nonetheless, a few did manage some positive words about him, of the 'I haven't always agreed with you but...' kind. Even Steve Baker managed, 'It is perfectly plain to me you love this place and this Parliament and I am grateful for all of your service.'
 
eternumviti said:
Beneath all the tropes about some kind of assault on democracy by BJ I suspect some people are losing sight of the fact that he is carrying out the wishes of the majority. Those trying to confound him, and who themselves have already tested the limits of our democratic constitutional settlement in their efforts, are doing the opposite. Didn't Major remove the whip from Maastricht dissidents, or threaten to, did Blair and May not ignore their cabinets?

Our electoral system will sort this out, and once it has done so, we can then sort the electoral system out. If there were a decent opposition, BJ would be toast in the forthcoming election. You cannot blame the electoral system for the fact that Corbyn is the leader of the opposition.
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If you were honest, you would admit that none of what Johnson is doing passes a very simple test. If this was Corbyn laying waste to the sovereignty you claim to be so interested in, you would be taking a very different line. Also the media instead of egging him on to play to the baying mob, would be in a frenzy of indignation.

But no, for you the ends justify the means. Well be careful what you wish for. As far as I can see the bar has just been lowered for future administrations. There is every possibility as we lurch further into crisis that someone less to your taste gets to play. You are either for Parliamentary democracy, or you are not.

I had often wondered how Germany went so wrong in the 30s and as the series on BBC2 is showing, you just have to persuade enough people that gradually removing democracy, while playing to people insecurities and base instincts is all that is required to make them feel better. No doubt those who watched as people around them suddenly become swept up in it all felt similar feelings of frustration and anger.
 
glancaster said:
Even Steve Baker managed, 'It is perfectly plain to me you love this place and this Parliament and I am grateful for all of your service.
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The very same Steve Baker who heads the ‘ERG’, an unelected covertly-financed far-right political insurgency operating at the very heart of government. Exactly the sort of corrupt entity we need a good speaker to protect us all from.
 
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