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Ukraine III

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vs music said:
In your countries , VERY little is known about Russian people . You are under the influence of your propaganda . A lot of people in Russia support the actions of our Army . And those who have NOW left Russia - they are just shaking for the safety of their foreign assets and real estate . Homeland for them is a place where their ass is warm . They will sell everyone .
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OK, these are a couple of genuine questions, because to me, these things don't make any sense:

1) If, as you have been told by Putin, that Ukrainians and Russians are the same people, the same country, and that the Russian soldiers would be welcomed by the Ukrainians, then why is the invasion progressing so slowly? Why is there so much apparent resistance and fighting from the Ukrainians?

2) Putin says that one reason for this 'special military operation' is his dislike of NATO expanding eastwards. So why would he want to take Ukraine, when doing so would bring the border of Russia right up to three NATO members: Slovakia, Poland and Romania? (I'm already aware of the border with Norway and the Kaliningrad enclave.)

Thanks.
 
Fist shaking, making threats and rage at criticism while the Russian government is busy destroying someone else’s country and it’s citizens.
 
I see the minister currently known as Grant Shapps has told Sky News that the public have 'moved on' from Partygate to more important matters like Ukraine.
 
Speaking of Ukraine and fascism, an article in today's Basler Zeitung is illuminating:

The communications battle was won by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Most recently, he moved the entire Western world with his Zoom speeches in front of the German and American MPs. Vladimir Putin, the self-proclaimed Nazi hunter, on the other hand shocks with fascist rhetoric. In one of his recent television appearances, he fumed at the traitors in his country. A translator subtitled the tirade in English and tweeted it around the world.

A Russian scientist who works at a Swiss university but does not want to see her name in the newspaper for fear of reprisals comments: “It is indeed a terrible speech. You can compare them to Hitler's speeches. Putin has also used the word in several speeches, which means 'final solution' in German."

In the current speech, Putin rages about people who earn their money in Russia but live elsewhere – at least mentally they are somewhere else, trapped in their “slave mentality”. He does not condemn anyone who has a villa on the French Riviera; no one who couldn't get along "without foie gras, oysters or so-called gender freedoms". But many would consider themselves better than the Russian people as a higher caste, superior race. And they would sell their own mother for such a life.

In the clip, Putin claims that the West has enslaved these people with the sole aim of destroying Russia. But every people can distinguish true patriots from scum, from traitors. And it would spit them out like an accidentally swallowed mosquito. He speaks of the "necessary self-cleaning" of the country.

The Russian scientist emphasizes that he had also used other Nazi vocabulary before. One of his standards is also the argument that war is not war, but prevention. Because, as Putin often says, the Anglo-Saxons did not want a strong Russia, but its destruction. The word "Anglo-Saxons" is typical in the context. Putin's manslaughter argument is: "If we hadn't done that, they would have attacked us the next day and the sanctions would have been introduced anyway."

Unfortunately, the Russian reports, most people in Russia believed the propaganda, especially in the provinces and older generations. Because they don't have access to independent media.

Stalinist echoes

Magdalena Kaltseis, Slavicist at the University of Klagenfurt, states that Putin uses two very common terms: transliterated "nacional' predateli" (national traitor) and "pjataja kolonna" (fifth column). In doing so, he paints the picture of the enemy within, of decadent, westernized Russians undermining the nation; Since the Spanish Civil War, groups suspected of collaborating with an external enemy have been referred to as the fifth column. As early as 2012/13, the leaders of the protest movement against Putin were described as follows: "These terms are part of the basic media and political vocabulary of Russian propaganda," says Kaltseis.

That Putin paints the picture of mosquitoes being spit out and speaks of «rabble» (podonki) that must be dealt with by the people, real patriots (istinnye patrioty) in an act of «self-cleansing» in order to strengthen the country: "It's reminiscent of the denunciations that peaked at the time of the 'Great Terror' during Stalinist rule." For Kaltseis, terms such as "caste" and "race" are new to Putin's rhetoric.

The propaganda researcher

National Socialist and Stalinist vocabulary, including falsification of history, did indeed appear again and again in Putin's rhetoric, for example when he commented on the "historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians" in June 2021, explains Slavic studies professor Barbara Sonnenhauser from the University of Zurich. His new speech was hard to bear. And although it is now almost impossible to obtain independent information in Russia, some see the parallels to National Socialist and Stalinist rhetoric there.
 
vs music said:
I'm Russian. I am 57 years old . And I support what our government is doing now . And many of my friends and relatives also support our Army . The Nazis must be fought . My country was able to destroy the entire fascist 3rd Reich. And we can do it again . Let them be afraid of the Arabs in Europe and in England , but in our country they are fighting the terrorists resolutely . We will drive out the Nazis in Ukraine like cockroaches and rats.... You are all here - write a lot of nonsense and nonsense about my country.... Prepare a bunker (or barn) for Zelensky's shelter. Very soon he will need it to hide his ass .....Have a good Friday to everyone !
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F*cking barbarian.

109 empty baby carriages in central Lviv, I won't need to tell you what they represent.

foipgpoxiccx2zj-jpg.173644
 
Propaganda has a very powerful influence on individuals. Once immersed in such a fantasy, it is really hard for more rational people to have a positive influence. We’ve seen this with religion, politics, anti-vaccine, climate denial, and especially now in a time of war. I have no answers, only a gut belief that we need to keep trying to get through to them, even when they appear completely brain-washed and beyond hope.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/03/18/russian-hearts-minds-reach-them-00018357
 
vs music said:
I expressed my opinion about these events . That 's all . A lot has already been written here , and different things . It is possible to classify all of you as trolls - based on this . It seems that this is always done in your democracy .
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Can you please tell us where you are getting your news? With the current restrictions in place, are you able to follow anything other than Russian state TV?
 
tones said:
Speaking of Ukraine and fascism, an article in today's Basler Zeitung is illuminating:

The communications battle was won by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Most recently, he moved the entire Western world with his Zoom speeches in front of the German and American MPs. Vladimir Putin, the self-proclaimed Nazi hunter, on the other hand shocks with fascist rhetoric. In one of his recent television appearances, he fumed at the traitors in his country. A translator subtitled the tirade in English and tweeted it around the world.

A Russian scientist who works at a Swiss university but does not want to see her name in the newspaper for fear of reprisals comments: “It is indeed a terrible speech. You can compare them to Hitler's speeches. Putin has also used the word in several speeches, which means 'final solution' in German."

In the current speech, Putin rages about people who earn their money in Russia but live elsewhere – at least mentally they are somewhere else, trapped in their “slave mentality”. He does not condemn anyone who has a villa on the French Riviera; no one who couldn't get along "without foie gras, oysters or so-called gender freedoms". But many would consider themselves better than the Russian people as a higher caste, superior race. And they would sell their own mother for such a life.

In the clip, Putin claims that the West has enslaved these people with the sole aim of destroying Russia. But every people can distinguish true patriots from scum, from traitors. And it would spit them out like an accidentally swallowed mosquito. He speaks of the "necessary self-cleaning" of the country.

The Russian scientist emphasizes that he had also used other Nazi vocabulary before. One of his standards is also the argument that war is not war, but prevention. Because, as Putin often says, the Anglo-Saxons did not want a strong Russia, but its destruction. The word "Anglo-Saxons" is typical in the context. Putin's manslaughter argument is: "If we hadn't done that, they would have attacked us the next day and the sanctions would have been introduced anyway."

Unfortunately, the Russian reports, most people in Russia believed the propaganda, especially in the provinces and older generations. Because they don't have access to independent media.

Stalinist echoes

Magdalena Kaltseis, Slavicist at the University of Klagenfurt, states that Putin uses two very common terms: transliterated "nacional' predateli" (national traitor) and "pjataja kolonna" (fifth column). In doing so, he paints the picture of the enemy within, of decadent, westernized Russians undermining the nation; Since the Spanish Civil War, groups suspected of collaborating with an external enemy have been referred to as the fifth column. As early as 2012/13, the leaders of the protest movement against Putin were described as follows: "These terms are part of the basic media and political vocabulary of Russian propaganda," says Kaltseis.

That Putin paints the picture of mosquitoes being spit out and speaks of «rabble» (podonki) that must be dealt with by the people, real patriots (istinnye patrioty) in an act of «self-cleansing» in order to strengthen the country: "It's reminiscent of the denunciations that peaked at the time of the 'Great Terror' during Stalinist rule." For Kaltseis, terms such as "caste" and "race" are new to Putin's rhetoric.

The propaganda researcher

National Socialist and Stalinist vocabulary, including falsification of history, did indeed appear again and again in Putin's rhetoric, for example when he commented on the "historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians" in June 2021, explains Slavic studies professor Barbara Sonnenhauser from the University of Zurich. His new speech was hard to bear. And although it is now almost impossible to obtain independent information in Russia, some see the parallels to National Socialist and Stalinist rhetoric there.
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Coincidentally, given the style of rhetoric that piece describes, the only nations voting with Russia against the UN General Assembly resolution calling for Russia’s immediate unconditional withdrawal from Ukraine were Belarus, North Korea, Syria and Eritrea. Nations not exactly known for their commitment to democracy but instead brutally repressive one party dictatorships. It demonstrates how isolated Russia is that it can only muster support from a hideous, tiny peer group like this.
 
TheDecameron said:
Coincidentally, given the style of rhetoric that piece describes, the only nations voting with Russia against the UN General Assembly resolution calling for Russia’s immediate unconditional withdrawal from Ukraine were Belarus, North Korea, Syria and Eritrea. Nations not exactly known for their commitment to democracy but instead brutally repressive one party dictatorships. It demonstrates how isolated Russia is that it can only muster support from a hideous, tiny peer group like this.
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Nobody wants trade with any of those four countries except for Russia and China. None are in a position to bite the hand that feeds their military dictatorships.

Eritrea is the strangest ally, as their geopolitical situation could be compared to Ukraine.
 
I just feel this goodies versus baddies narrative is sidestepping a bit of an elephant here.

One thing I got from being in Russia (some 25 years ago I admit) was the feeling of Russian national pride. Although a drab environment by Western standards, people felt as if they were in the same boat and there was a sense of community.

There was an ambivalence toward Western decadence. Mother Russia provides the essentials of healthy living like jobs, housing etc along with life positives like team spirit.
The west brings Coca-Cola and Mcdonalds and obesity.
And now 'Nazism' [sic].

Putin is placing good faith in the patriotism of his countrymen and it has helped sustain a credence for the 'special operation' [sic] so far.

He seems to have underestimated a similar and opposing belief system in the Ukrainians though.
 
The thing is, even though I wasn't exactly seeking out alternative news sources at the time, as an American I cannot imagine myself going around during Bush Jr.'s Iraq War arguing vociferously online in support of the invasion "because he's got WMD's". I knew the government's messaging, I knew that Congress voted based on that BS info, and my brain nevertheless said "even if that's true, it's no reason to invade another country, get a bunch of people killed, and condemn an entire nation to instability for decades to come."

I get that people in Russia will not see the current conflict in the same way as me. I'm just surprised at how readily such obvious BS as "Nazis led by drug addicts" as a justification for war is parroted by the populace.
 
It gets fruitier, the attack on Ukraine is a “struggle against sin and pressure to hold gay parades”-


https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...offensives-falter-live?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


They came only days after he told the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Kirill, that the concept of a “just war” was obsolete since wars are never justifiable and that pastors must preach peace, not politics.

Those comments, during a video call with Kirill on Wednesday, were an indirect criticism of the patriarch’s apparent defence of the war. Kirill, who is close to the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, has seemingly justified the invasion by describing it as part of a struggle against sin and pressure from liberal foreigners to hold “gay parades”.
 
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