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Ukraine III

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DimitryZ said:
How quickly your convictions fizzle. It's easy to negotiate with the victim, much harder to do so with an agressor.

You spent weeks advising to "take the Russian perspective into account." Yet when an actual Russian shows up, you have no interest in doing so.
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Putin has been posting on here?
 
Nick_G said:
Really? This looks like a gay parade to me:
090805-putin-hlarg-133p.jpg
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Reminds me of the old joke about "what animal has a c*nt in the middle of its back ?"
 
DimitryZ said:
Importantly, Putinism is based on an idea that the Russian nation is special and superior because of its' deep spirituality and religiosity and strong opposition to gay rights. In Russian it's a difficult to translate phrase - духовные скрепы - spiritual bonds.
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Sounds suspiciously like many evangelicals in the US.
 
ks.234 said:
Putin has been posting on here?
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A person who supports him in this war has. Putin has to satisfy his core electorate with the results of this "special operation."

So, as a proponent of "understanding of the Russian side," you have a perfect opportunity to do that directly.

You have not been shy about giving advice to Ukraine. But the arrival of the actual "Russian side" has curiously ended your professed curiosity.
 
DimitryZ said:
A person who supports him in this war has. Putin has to satisfy his core electorate with the results of this "special operation."

So, as a proponent of "understanding of the Russian side," you have a perfect opportunity to do that directly.

You have not been shy about giving advice to Ukraine. But the arrival of the actual "Russian side" has curiously ended your professed curiosity.
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But is it? Can a real Russian be posting from Russia or is it, perhaps a real Russian from the HOL or a Russian asset from the HOC? Perhaps ks.234 just thinks vs is trolling, difficult to reason with some of the thoughts he's expressed so why bother engaging?
 
Understanding the Russian side is not the same as supporting it.
Putin is totally wrong but no need to ignore the nuance.
Same with Hitler and the reparations inherited from WW1.
 
Minio said:
Understanding the Russian side is not the same as supporting it.
Putin is totally wrong but no need to ignore the nuance.
Same with Hitler and the reparations inherited from WW1.
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Again, let's by all means learn the Russian nuance, since we have a PFMer who seems well able to explain it to the well-meaning west.
 
George J said:
I have read every post in the now three parts of the Ukraine thread.

A thought that has long since lodged with me is that after a while every country gets the government it deserves. A revolution may come along, but after a while the government will reflect a nation's basic cultural instinct. In the UK we have the government we deserve. In France they have the government they deserve. In Ukraine they have the government they deserve ... In Russia they have the government they deserve!

So without wanting to be seen as anti-Russian, or even perhaps a racist, I would say that it is no surprise that many Russians fully support Putin in the invasion of Ukraine. Even in fifty years this will not change. When Putin is no longer leader of Russia, the situation will arise again. All the small countries that border Russia need to be very careful to be able to defend themselves against Russia - as Ukraine seems to be doing with considerable and perhaps, for some, surprising success.

Our newest Russian correspondent - loyal Russian though he appears to be - needs to remember that while we may not understand the nuances of Russia, we - or many of us outside Russia, and I speak as half Norwegian - have a massive distrust not just of the Russian government [at any stage in history and today], but also the motives the majority of the Russian populace. The hope is for a successful Ukrainian defeat of the Russian invasion army. If the Russian army do win the invasion, Russia will be facing a long Ukrainian civil unrest that will tie down a large military force for perhaps decades. Tragic for the people of Ukraine and very costly for Russia. I have known two Russians who came from Estonia and Latvia as work colleagues [working in England]. Both could be quite fun, but I would have trusted neither further than I could throw them.

On a lighter note, Norwegians are not particularly noted for being humorous, but they can manage a rather dry irony!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60786467

Never mind impounding a Russian Oligarch's watch. Just refuse to sell it fuel!

Keep safe, and KBO [Churchill saying].


Best wishes from George
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Every now and then a genius post appears. This is one. Had a good laugh at the quote in bold. You are uncannily 1000% correct in all of this post.

Dimitry correctly identifies it is good to hear from the other side in a ruthless conflict like this but true to form one gets no real engagement. Just bullish rhetoric. Facts need to be avoided by these type of creatures as they don't sit well with their view of the world. Everything Putin mouths out about Ukraine more accurately describes himself and the country he governs.
 
DimitryZ said:
A person who supports him in this war has. Putin has to satisfy his core electorate with the results of this "special operation."

So, as a proponent of "understanding of the Russian side," you have a perfect opportunity to do that directly.

You have not been shy about giving advice to Ukraine. But the arrival of the actual "Russian side" has curiously ended your professed curiosity.
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Me thinks you’re a bit all over the place. First you suggest that me and someone else are the same, then you suggest I need to convince them of something, now your suggesting, we’ll, not entirely sure what.

All I have said, and said all along, is the if you want the quickest end to suffering, then a negotiated withdrawal is, as far as I can see, the only option.

Happy to to discus that suggestion, or to try to understand whatever your own suggestion is, but you seem to have a different agenda here and I’m not sure what it is.
 
Plink said:
Duplicitous. Zelensky nor other Ukrainians post here yet you keep blathering on about their surrender to the invader Putin under the guise of compromise.
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Utter nonsense. I have never suggested that Ukraine surrenders. Stop telling lies
 
ks.234 said:
Me thinks you’re a bit all over the place. First you suggest that me and someone else are the same, then you suggest I need to convince them of something, now your suggesting, we’ll, not entirely sure what.

All I have said, and said all along, is the if you want the quickest end to suffering, then a negotiated withdrawal is, as far as I can see, the only option.

Happy to to discus that suggestion, or to try to understand whatever your own suggestion is, but you seem to have a different agenda here and I’m not sure what it is.
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So ask if a "negotiated withdrawal" is something that Russia wants.

You have been freely and often giving advice to Ukraine and the west - well, that's the easy room.

Try your peacemaking on the Russian side - after all they would have to agree to withdraw their "Z" troops and their hospital-busting Iskander missiles for any of this to work.

Yet you studiously avoid doing that.
 
ks.234 said:
All I have said, and said all along, is the if you want the quickest end to suffering, then a negotiated withdrawal is, as far as I can see, the only option.
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What position do you think Ukraine should suggest? And what positions do you think Russia would accept?
 
DimitryZ said:
So ask if a "negotiated withdrawal" is something that Russia wants.

You have been freely and often giving advice to Ukraine and the west - well, that's the easy room.

Try your peacemaking on the Russian side - after all they would have to agree to withdraw their "Z" troops and their hospital-busting Iskander missiles for any of this to work.

Yet you studiously avoid doing that.
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And what is your position and how would that bring the quickest end to the suffering in Ukraine?
 
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