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The end of Mana Audio

Hi Cliff,

"If you want to start doing the same to me, thats fine, because I can always reply in kind, if you want. Its pretty clear to me since you're pretty vocal on the Mana forum (AFAICT) you are biased in favour of Mana, and that is fine with me. However you weren't at the Bristol show, "

I was there and disagree with your conclusions as did representatives from Hi-Fi companies who also came to listen to the new power amps etc. However, I would say that it was not as good as the sound made in Mana rooms at other shows with other equipment. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I thought that was all in the past.....

I am told by people that know you that you are a good guy. Yet on the Hi-Fi fora whenever Mana is mentioned you very quickly start being rude and trying to bully people round to your view of the world.

Why not just be a bit more relaxed with other people having differing views of things?

Ian
 
IanW said:
Why not just be a bit more relaxed with other people having differing views of things?
Click to expand...

It cuts both ways though, doesn't it?

Mana fan: 'Mana makes everything sound ten times better and if you disagree you are deaf'

Non-fan: 'Mana looks ugly and smells of poo!'

The rest of us stand (no pun intended) amazed at the flying vitriol, like Tranmere fans at a Liverpool/Everton match, revelling in the occasional bon mot, noting down the examples of faulty logic/reasoning, and sketching out ideas for a thousand-page novel in heroic couplets about raising herds of angle-iron on a farm in Anglesey.
 
IanW said:
Hi Cliff,

"If you want to start doing the same to me, thats fine, because I can always reply in kind, if you want. Its pretty clear to me since you're pretty vocal on the Mana forum (AFAICT) you are biased in favour of Mana, and that is fine with me. However you weren't at the Bristol show, "

I was there and disagree with your conclusions as did representatives from Hi-Fi companies who also came to listen to the new power amps etc. However, I would say that it was not as good as the sound made in Mana rooms at other shows with other equipment. And everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I thought that was all in the past.....

I am told by people that know you that you are a good guy. Yet on the Hi-Fi fora whenever Mana is mentioned you very quickly start being rude and trying to bully people round to your view of the world.

Why not just be a bit more relaxed with other people having differing views of things?

Ian
Click to expand...

Ian,

You seem like a a decent guy and I appreciate that you are trying to be the voice of reason on the Mana forum, but your post does come across as hypocritical. How you can ask "... be a bit more relaxed with other people having differing views of things?..." whilst being involved with the Mana forum, and the recent personal attacks that have been posted there, is beyond comprehension.

ss
 
Tony,

With regard to what options are available to PFM regarding this thread.

May I sudgest, (and I am sure I am not the only one with this view)

Option D,

Prune the whole thread,
So that only comments which relate to Heuer's position, and that of Mana Audio's Financial position remain, delete any further comment made which do not come into this category.

Posts should reflect the thread title.

At the moment the position of certain PFM members and the purpose of this thread come across as Anti-Mana.

You are in a position to sort this out and give equal mesure to both views.
I'm sure someone else could start an anti-mana thread if allowed ?

Regards
Steve
 
In these more liberal times it is worrying that endemic standophobia is still rife in the more general community at large. Recent investigations into major public bodies have shown that there is still a degree of standophobia that could be considered as institutional.

In the twenty-first century even the armed forces selection policies are stand indifferent. This level of toleration is no longer the preserve of the Guardian reading left wing elite. But society at large, especially C and D groups, are often very anti-stand.

People who are mana-orientated are often singled out for ostracism, even amongst evangelical groups of standophiles. This behaviour has been likened to Christianity in Northern Ireland – groups of worshippers who are more likely to be critical of other groups with essentially the same beliefs and philosophy but small differences - rather than ones of a completely different faith.

Like Christianity, Manaites are often tarred with the same brush. The deep south / mid-western brand of Christianity in the USA, with hatred of other creeds, belief in the bible as an absolute word of God and the desire to see the teaching of science in public schools reflect those beliefs are in some ways similar to the more evangelical Mana user, who will often state that all other stands are an anathema. But what about the rather apologetic middle-England C of E Christian? Should all Mana users be assumed to be members of the neo-spikeist affirmative action group?

Stand orientation is at once a difficult and simple issue. Even bi-standual individuals (it’s OK under and LP12, fine with my briks – Fraim everywhere else) who “swing both ways” seem to bring more conflict than resolution to the debate – often enraging both of the extreme camps.

Many mana-men just accept that this is their orientation and get on with their lives, but is society at large willing to accept that? The apparent institutional standophobia in the general population at large would suggest not.

Hopefully future generations will look back at this debate as a function of the quaint stupidity of their ancestors – in the same way as the supporters of slavery are seen today.
 
You are in a position to sort this out and give equal mesure to both views.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I am doing. You will notice that the pro-Mana folks such as yourself, Ian W etc are perfectly welcome to state your case here. This is a very different situation to say the Mana forum, a place where all but a tiny minority are restricted access and all but a single viewpoint is censored.

Tony.
 
Hi ss,

"How you can ask "... be a bit more relaxed with other people having differing views of things?..." whilst being involved with the Mana forum, and the recent personal attacks that have been posted there, is beyond comprehension."

There have been very strong comments on both sides and I am just trying to calm that down.

As a moderator on the Mana forum I am asking more strongly for there to be some calm over there.

How else should I deal with it?

Both sides have had enough tiem to vent their anger so surely it is time to move on?

Ian
 
Jonathan Ribee said:
In these more liberal times it is worrying that endemic standophobia is still rife in the more general community at large. Recent investigations into major public bodies have shown that there is still a degree of standophobia that could be considered as institutional.

In the twenty-first century even the armed forces selection policies are stand indifferent. This level of toleration is no longer the preserve of the Guardian reading left wing elite. But society at large, especially C and D groups, are often very anti-stand.

People who are mana-orientated are often singled out for ostracism, even amongst evangelical groups of standophiles. This behaviour has been likened to Christianity in Northern Ireland – groups of worshippers who are more likely to be critical of other groups with essentially the same beliefs and philosophy but small differences - rather than ones of a completely different faith.

Like Christianity, Manaites are often tarred with the same brush. The deep south / mid-western brand of Christianity in the USA, with hatred of other creeds, belief in the bible as an absolute word of God and the desire to see the teaching of science in public schools reflect those beliefs are in some ways similar to the more evangelical Mana user, who will often state that all other stands are an anathema. But what about the rather apologetic middle-England C of E Christian? Should all Mana users be assumed to be members of the neo-spikeist affirmative action group?

Stand orientation is at once a difficult and simple issue. Even bi-standual individuals (it’s OK under and LP12, fine with my briks – Fraim everywhere else) who “swing both ways” seem to bring more conflict than resolution to the debate – often enraging both of the extreme camps.

Many mana-men just accept that this is their orientation and get on with there lives, but is society at large willing to accept that? The apparent institutional standophobia in the general population at large would suggest not.

Hopefully future generations will look back at this debate as a function of the quaint stupidity of their ancestors – in the same way as the supporters of slavery are seen today.
Click to expand...

Your entire argument is undermined by your mis-use of the word 'there' in your penultimate paragraph.
 
Pruning the thread makes no sense to me at all. While it is true that the anti-Mana-voices are louder than those of the Mana supporters, Tony has made it very clear that JW is welcome to join pfm and contribute to this (or any other) thread. If JW chooses to not do this, that is his choice and he will have his reasons, but why should Tony influence the content of this thread?

Most of the people reading this thread will also have sussed by now that there is some personal history between some of the more vociferous anti-Mana-posters and JW; Bub has been grand enough to distinguish between JW the man and Mana the product, which is something a lot of other posters should do as well.

From my point of view, a good part the history is really quite simple: some of the most frequent posters on the old Mana forum were peaked customers, not interested in buying any more Mana. A certain person arrived on the Mana forum, saying that he was ready to buy a lot of Mana, and I guess JW hoped that he would be as effective as a Mana evangelist as he had been as a Mana detractor on many a forum, notably the Naim forum. Since that person and some of the others were intimate enemies, he chose to go with that person and gave up the others.

Now that may appear to have been unfriendly, but I think the reality is that Mana's business wasn't as good as it once was (for reasons I have speculated about elsewhere, notably the fact that Mana is not modular and was never sold effectively to the AV market). A manufacturer has to make a living, and so he will go with the option that he thinks is in his best interest. I don't think it all turned out the way JW had hoped it would.

So JW decides to wind up his company. I certainly don't think he would have done that if he had been able to avoid it. He left Heuer (and possbily the other customer Tony mentions) hanging in the air, which is not pleasant; I hope he will find advisers who tell him that it is in his best interest to take care of these customers. I think JW seriously underestimated the power of the internet, and did not expect the fall-out all over first ZG and now pfm, clearly a major PR catastrophe.
 
I do not know JW but he has shown me some generosity in the past. Mana works for me. One person here is taking legal action against JW for non-delivery of product.

Beyond that, why is so much heat being generated?
 
Cav said:
I do not know JW but he has shown me some generosity in the past. Mana works for me. One person here is taking legal action against JW for non-delivery of product.

Beyond that, why is so much heat being generated?
Click to expand...

because he is trying to dissolve the company on the quiet whilst pretending that everything is fine?
removing questions regarding the status of the company from his 'forum' ?
 
Joe,
It's because the forum is populated by many folk with permanently entrenched views, and who immediately turn on anyone who thinks differently. Jonathan brilliantly makes the analogy with religious fundamentalists.
Ken
 
KenM said:
It's because the forum is populated by many folk with permanently entrenched views, and who immediately turn on anyone who thinks differently. Jonathan brilliantly makes the analogy with religious fundamentalists.
Click to expand...

Well, yes. But surely this isn't a Mana thing so much as a nerdy/blokey thing? I've seen equally heated debates on such issues as 'cables all sound the same'; 'CD will never sound as good as vinyl' etc, and I'm sure blokes with other nerdy hobbies get equally aereated about their obsessions.
 
Hi Kenny,Tony, Markus.

I though that from a legal point of view it would be required or good etiquet to keep quite about legal proceedings and such, I do not think any court would be impressed with forum discusion of legal matters.

I would keep quiet if I had legal problems with a customer, who knows what legal points may be affected if discussing personal buisness on a forum, I would also expect my personal life and buisness to be respected as two different things.
Personaly if a letter landed on my doormat from someones legal representative, then I would leave it to my lawyer to sort out, and only get involved through the lawyer. Its how these things work, no point rolling a ball down the hill and complaining about where its going.

There is still censorship in this forum, and if the "supported" Anti-Mana slander which is going on here is anything to go by, no wonder the Mana forum has been closed off to the shitstirrers.

This whole thread exists because one customer has taken legal action against Mana, we have one side of the story, but as Legal action is in progress we should not expect to have it dragged out and discussed in public by the opposite side of the legal proceedings.

Steve
 
steve, the proposal to strike off is a matter of public record, and can be viewed via companies house website. the form is signed by JW himself...

the form is a declaration by directors that a company has not traded for a period of at least three months and is dormant.
 
Here in the States one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law and anything you say can and will be used against in a court of law.

I have seen Tony L clean up these sort of threads in the past, but I get the idea that he is enjoying this one too much. Seems kind of like a public lynching to me. :(
 
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