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Sugden Connoisseur - lost classic? (part II)

Hi folks...

Can I be so bold as to re-open this thread...???

I have recently obtained a BD.2 in reasonable condition...

A couple of the suspension-spring mounts are broken, and the motor appears rather loose.

The first issue I can fix, but the motor has me baffled.

The tiny elastic bands used to suspend the motor unit beneath the "Spider" aren't perished and appear fairly new, but when I connect the belt to the platter (which is heavier than I imagined it would be), the entire motor and pulley assembly is pulled quite a bit off the vertical...

Should this happen...?

I assume that if I try to connect the motor in a more direct fashion to the turntable body I will experience quite a bit of rumble...???
 
Bloosman

The thread has never closed.

It has two parts.

May I suggest that you go to Part 1 of the thread?

To do this please go to the first page of this thread, i.e. Part II. The first post in Part II will have a ‘here’.

Click on the here. This takes you automatically to Part I.

Now…Go back to Page 30 of Part I. On that page you will find post #439.

That post consists of an INDEX to the posts on Part I .

Look under ‘M’ for motor. You should find useful information.

I suggest you read the entire thread, Part I, as well as Part II.

Regards,

eguth
 
eguth said:
Bloosman

The thread has never closed.

It has two parts.

May I suggest that you go to Part 1 of the thread?

To do this please go to the first page of this thread, i.e. Part II. The first post in Part II will have a ‘here’.

Click on the here. This takes you automatically to Part I.

Now…Go back to Page 30 of Part I. On that page you will find post #439.

That post consists of an INDEX to the posts on Part I .

Look under ‘M’ for motor. You should find useful information.

I suggest you read the entire thread, Part I, as well as Part II.

Regards,

eguth
Click to expand...

Many thanks...didn't realise there was a Part I....!!!!! (almost need a forum all of its own this deck by the look of things....!)
 
Further to my first shot: the elastic bands either are not anywhere near new, or have been replaced by ordinary rubber bands- which are quite different from the original Sugden material.

You will see, if you follow my advice above, that the rubber bands are not a good way- much less the best way- to do the suspension.

The Part I gives details on how to construct and improve the suspension yourself, using a new kind of suspension. You should read the entire thread before starting. The new suspension itself has been improved.

Best

eguth
 
And, further, the original rubber spider that the motor hangs from is only part of the suspension. You should have around the motor a plastic band which has a little leg on it. That leg secures one end of a small rubber band that draws the bottom of the motor inwards to counter the pull from the drive belt at the top, the other end goes under a clip on the main plate. If nothing is there the motor won't sit vertically.

My motor is still on its original spider, supplemented by a DIY net of thin laggy bands to help support the weight and align the drive pulley with the platter groove, with whatever small laggy band works nicely for ensuring verticality of spindle. I remake the net or replace the tiny band as required, modern laggy bands don't like the heat, perish, and snap easily but are available by the hundreds very cheaply. It's not much effort for the performance on offer.
 
Michael J said:
And, further, the original rubber spider that the motor hangs from is only part of the suspension. You should have around the motor a plastic band which has a little leg on it. That leg secures one end of a small rubber band that draws the bottom of the motor inwards to counter the pull from the drive belt at the top, the other end goes under a clip on the main plate. If nothing is there the motor won't sit vertically.
Click to expand...

Ditto. Bloosman your issue sounds just like what is quoted above. If it is just this rubber band and you have a bag of rubber bands all sizes in my experience it is possible to find one that will suit. If not you can buy one from "the Guy in England" who I can't remember exact details of, but it's all in the thread here.

cheers,
Paul.
 
Rubber O-rings are available cheaply in an almost infinite range of sizes and last many years. One could even order lengths of round section rubber cord and splice to suit.

IOW, if a job is worth doing, it is worth doing right.

Craig
 
The motor mount having been subsequently redesigned would appear to conflict with your opinion that 'it was done right in the first place'. Unless you were referring to your miscellaneous elastic bands fix, in which case whatever it takes to keep these classics going for another 40+ years has to be a good thing.
 
The rubber suspension spider wasn't changed significantly, iirc, a plastic inner piece was added to prevent the motor starting up in reverse. Mine can run backwards.
 
Lovely long, interesting and slightly mad thread here! Well done to all.
Can anybody enlighten me: what is the effective mass of Connoisseur's SAU2 arm?
I am contemplating using it with a Shure M95ED (but I haven't got that to hand yet). Given that they are both seventies designs, I would imagine that they both belong to the low mass/high compliance design school, in which case they should be a good match. Also there are several references in this thread to the arm being used successfully with the Shure V15 cartridge. Given that Vinyl Engine says that both the V15 and the M95ED can be replaced by a M97xE, it suggests that they share similar compliance characteristics, which therefore augurs well for using the M95ED.
Any views/intelligence out there about the SAU2's effective mass characteristics?
ML
 
There wasn't an effective mass specification listed for SAU 2; however, it is indeed a low mass tonearm, and works well with any of the contemporary Shure models, as well a host of high compliance offerings from ADC and others. Not that you are limited to those, as many audio-technica MMs work fine too. I've enjoyed hearing AT95E, AT110E and AT12Sa on SAU 2 shod BD2.

One of the more interesting aspects of SAU 2 is the 45º/45º offset bearings and the way in which this has been utilized via the anti-skate feature; essentially an adjustable position out-rigger weight that draws the tonearm inward at -45º to level, without the use of thread and weight, springs, or magnets; all of which apply in inward force that isn't actually directed perpendicular to the groove wall. Keep in mind that A. R. Sugden had a hand in developing stereo microgroove recording, and was the first to demonstrate a working cutter system and microgroove records in the early 1950s.

You are more likely to see BD2/SAU 2 with Shures fitted. My mate James purchased his BD2 with Shure M91 new while attending college in England. As described way back in posts #1 and #6 in this half of the thread, he has since cut the chassis down to BD1 size and built a constrained layer damped plinth to replace the original late-version light metal box. James had long ago decided to change out the arm for an SME 3009 Series II Improved with V15 Type IV on. We rewired the SME with Cardas 33ga back in 2010 after one of the headshell end leads broke free whilst he was installing the arm on the new plinth. The whole thing sounds quite superb really.

I notice that the links to the pics of James' deck from post #6 have died, so click here if interested. He did a nice job and the old lid fits like a glove using the original hinges. The pictures were taken before he had decided where to fasten the three feet, hence the apparent misalignment between the front two. Notice his preference for the old Angstrom Ultimat, one of the popular Canadian* made polymer jobs from back in the day. I have an old Rega felt here that I long ago promised to cut down to circa 10" for him to try; must dig it out and have a go at keeping the hole in the middle.

Edit: I've included .pdf copies of some Connoisseur brochures and manuals as well, so help yourself.

* Canada produced four of the more popular mats on the market duing the late 70s through early 80s: Angstrom Ultimat, Platter Matter, Music Mat, and The Oracle Mat; the latter two were quite sticky.
 
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Smashing post, Craig B. Lots of interesting info - v helpful. Plus I'm impressed with your chum's BD2 conversion. He has managed the surgery on the metal deck very well, especially considering that he wasn't just cutting down a flat plate, but had to remove the curved profile around the edge too. Very neat.

General question here for any Connoisseur owners/fettlers reading the thread: are T&G still in business? I have been unsuccessful getting a reply to my phone calls, but to judge by others' experience in this thread that is par for the course. The message seems to be if you keep trying, at some point someone will be walking past the phone while it is ringing at the other end. Or maybe there really is no-one there. Can I ask how recently has anyone had contact with them?I
ML
 
Michael J said:
The rubber suspension spider wasn't changed significantly, iirc, a plastic inner piece was added to prevent the motor starting up in reverse. Mine can run backwards.
Click to expand...
A bit late in replying, but it is worth noting the following...

The motor starting up in reverse has to do with the phase capacitor part of the usual resistor/capacitor network having been omitted. There is simply a 10w 3700 Ohm ±5% wire wound resistor dropping the mains voltage, hence the need for the power switch to double as a platter push lever. Were it a 12" platter, Mr. Sugden would likely have omitted this and instructed the user to give the platter a push by hand during switch on.

All three parts of the improved motor mount were different from the original bits; the rubber bands of old having been replaced by an equilateral 'Y' shaped rubber strap held in place on the motor by a nylon retaining clip which slots into the top of the motor housing after the three plastic hangar bars are broken out. The shape of the mounting plate and the orientation of the three hooks (relative to the platter) help prevent the pulley from being drawn toward the platter.

If you click on the 'Connoisseur brochures and manuals' link above, I've included a .pdf which includes copies of the BD1 & BD2 manuals plus the two page 'Instructions for Fitting Improved Suspension Mount to BD1 & BD2 Motors'.
 
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I've recently refurbished another of these turntables (I know, I know, I swore I'd never touch one again!) and found that three 20mm cassette deck belts are fine as supports for the motor in place of the original item.

Obviously, the motor still vibrates, it still runs too fast and it's still a steaming turd of a turntable but at least it works.
 
Is there anyone out there that has serviced the arm lift on the SAU2 ? I guess it must have some thick oil in it which could do with replacing. I haven't investigated how it comes apart either. I did replace the oil on My SME3009 series 2 Improved and lift and this turned out to be quite simple as it quite easily pulls apart, the oil in that was 1000000 Cs which I got from a RC car shop on E-bay.
 
2.5mm NYLON thread

This can be used to make excellent replacement belts for Connoisseur rubber ones.

Nylon cord is non- stretch. Ideal for my (modified) BD1. If you have not modified as per me, you may have to introduce some 'give' elsewhere in the drive chain to prevent motor vibration entering the equation. Try first without extra compliance.

Nylon cord is easily fused with the flame from a match first applied briefly to both loose ends. This results in a neat, very strong joint.

I bought my nylon cord from:

www.aliexpress.com

You will see many kinds of cord made from other material when you search the site. Make certain you purchase NYLON cord, of 2.5mm diameter.

Cost? Less than a fiver, usually with free shipping from China. It comes in a spool- usually 50 metre length.

You can make your new belt any length- provided that the belt does not use more than 50 metres of nylon. If it does, you have drilled holes in your walls and mounted the motor in your garden. Presumably this pleases the birds, who will sing along to your musical selections.

Let us know how you (and the birds) get on.

eguth
 
@equth,

I have a sneaking suspicion that one would need to reduce, or eliminate, give elsewhere, else the taught nylon cord be the only path for motor vibration to travel along.

In your separate motor mounting arrangement, a firm mechanical grounding of the motor (such as to a load bearing wall) is likely what makes the use of nylon cord feasible. I am partially basing this suspicion upon my limited experience of the early Melco thread drive decks where the motor was a very solidly mounted affair.

Appologies, if I am not recalling the details of your motor mounting method correctly, as it has been some years since the old thread (pun?) began on here.

Craig
 
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Craig B said:
@equth,

I have a sneaking suspicion that one would need to reduce, or eliminate, give elsewhere, else the taught nylon cord be the only path for motor vibration to travel along.

In your separate motor mounting arrangement, a firm mechanical grounding of the motor (such as to a load bearing wall) is likely what makes the use of nylon cord feasible. I am partially basing this suspicion upon my limited experience of the early Melco thread drive decks where the motor was a very solidly mounted affair.

Appologies, if I am not recalling the details of your motor mounting method correctly, as it has been some years since the old thread (pun?) began on here.

Craig
Click to expand...

The standard motor mount suspension for the motor pulley to attach to the the belt has flexibility. This flex is not affected or reduced by solid wall mounting of the motor.

Should anyone wish to DIY build a high- end turntable 'for peanuts' (my goal in this venture), read my series of articles "The Turntable". This was originally published in that wonderful DIY mag (sadly, alas, no longer available) entitled 'AUDIO CONVERSIONS'.

I weep every time I read that people spend -sometimes considerable sums -on equipment that fails to implement some of the inexpensive basic upgrades detailed in that mag. The commercial boys loathe me- and others associated with AC -as a result.

I have always supported free copies- or 'at cost' copies or 'near at cost 'copies- of my series and have provided these myself (no longer).

If anyone wants copies I suggest that they put a request on this thread. Someone may be willing to send you a set of scans. Everyone is entitled, under English law, to one (1) copy of an article for research purposes. No one is entitled to post scans for all the world to see without express permission of the copyright owner. To do so is, in fact, a breach of copyright, and could lead to serious consequences.

Those of you who are aware of the amount of time and effort to experiment, research and build a complicated DIY project can empathise with those who find their efforts ripped off- usually with no thanks- or even an acknowlegement. I could go on for another page on how my work has been ripped off- in another field. I will stop here.
 
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