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Sugden Connoisseur - lost classic? (part II)

Craig B

Re:trophile
(TL: thread continued from here).

My friend James has done some interesting mods to his Connoisseur BD series deck.

What started out as a late model BD2 with SAU2 (in the relatively rare black metal plinth) first had its top plate cut down to roughly BD1 dimensions and mounted to a black perspex sheet which was then set into the original plinth.

His objective at the time was simply to be able to mount an SME 3009 SII with Shure V15 Type IV, although, I suspect that the end result was much more of a sonic change than the SME/Shure substitution alone would have offered had it fit the original pressed steel chassis.

After a couple of decades running his BD in this way, he recently decided to go solid plinth and set about designing his own 3-point supported MDF slab-type with SME cutout. The end result looks a bit like a somewhat thicker version of a late cosmetics SEE Revolver, minus the isolation between the two layers of MDF. Interestingly, he went with flat black 'blackboard' paint for its durability and ease of getting an even finish.

As to structure-borne resonance isolation, his current solution is 3 x 3M bumpon feet per bottom of each of 3 adjustable (and lockable) large wooden dowels as legs.

James is yet to try a decent dedicated turntable support, however, the sonic result is promising as is, this despite his BD being run within the confines of an active subwoofer system with suspended wooden floorboards.

I'll ask if he wouldn't mind providing some pics for inclusion on here.

Craig
 
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I am informed, by a reliable source, that the Connoisseur BD1 motor has 8 poles. The Linn LP12 motor, for example, has 24 poles.

In addition, LP12 has two ground of poles, one after another. Therefore, it is has 4 wires, group 1, group 2 , earth, earth.

The BD1 motor has only one group and is a single phase motor. Even you made it from 2 wires to 3 wires- with an earth wire- it still has only one group.

So….the Mose/Hercules II power supply and any other power supply that requires two ground poles will not work with a BD1 motor.
 
How may we get the best sound from a Connoisseur turntable? I believe that part of the correct answer lies in a clean mains supply.

There are a limited number of commercial regulated supplies that can be used with the BD1 motor. The Moth ‘Flutterbuster’ is one. It has not been manufactured for many years.

According to the September 1986 Hi Fi News advert for the Flutterbuster it is a 50Hz quartz-locked stabilised supply for certain turntables with AC synchronous motors- Connoisseur,AR, Rega, CJ Walker, Oak.

I confirm from my own unit now in use for more than two decades, that it will supply a high quality mains to the BD1 motor and that this results in an audible improvement compared to no stabilised supply. It also has 45 rpm available via a switch on the unit.

Second hand Flutterbusters occassionally appear for sale and should not cost much. In my view they should be upgraded and refurbished before use, even if they work perfectly well.

The upgrades I suggest- both for performance and safety- are as follows:

i) All resistors replaced with modern ones, the ones in critical positions with w/w. The unit can get hot inside.
ii) Output cap upgraded to 450V.
iii) Replace all transistors.
iv) Earth the case.
v) DO NOT REPLACE INTERNAL FUSE BEFORE LEAVING UNIT UNPLUGGED FOR A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME TO ALLOW THE ELECTROLYTICS TO DISCHARGE.

For optimum performance get a good mains condiitioner and plug it in to the mains BEFORE the Flutterbuster. Then plug in the BD1 to the Flutterbuster. I suspect, but cannot prove, that a Flutterbuster preceded by a excellent mains conditioner will outperform many of the currently available (and expensive) stabilised supplies that have no mains conditioning for use with turntables other than the BD1.
 
I have been simply AMAZED at the interest displayed in this thread. The number of views is impressive. [I AM REFERRING TO PART I OF THIS THREAD HERE]In the past couple of weeks since I posted about regulated power supplies for the BD1 there have now been almost 1000 new additional views.

There are pfm members capable of designing regulated supplies.

I propose that someone design and market a new supply specifically for the Connoisseur BD1/2. What is needed is a regulated supply useable anywhere in the world that is suited to run the Connoisseur BD1/2 single phase- 8 pole-motor. The new supply should be inexpensive and upgradeable. It should be switcheable via a toggle between 33 and 45 r.p.m. It would be nice to have a speed adjustment but this is not, in my opinion, essential.

Hopefully, the designer will supply a schematic to facilitate later servicing or mods.

Judging by the current interest displayed in the BD1, despite it having been out of production for decades, one of you could just be on to a ‘nice little earner’ with a good regulated supply.
 
I've found my way here from eguth's comments in the trade area that maybe I should make a power supply for the BD1....
I can't see it happening I'm afraid. As a small specialist company I don't have the luxury of any economy of scale, so although I could make such a thing I could not do it at a price that would be likely to appeal to people wanting to experiment with an old BD1! Some sort of universal supply may be an option in the future though ;)
 
My friend James finally got round to taking some photos of his finished plinth project. In the end, the SME needed an internal rewire, as one of the leads broke free at the (fixed) headshell end during teardown.

Result is a very fine sounding deck, certainly some way forward from the stock BD2/SAU2 decks that I remember.

Here's James' own description of the long history of his Conniosseur and the modifications that he has applied since the late 1980s...

Connoisseur BD2 Turntable History and Conversion

Original purchase: 1974, Guilford, Surrey, England
  • approx. price 40 pounds
  • stock metal plinth with SAU2 pickup arm and Perspex dust cover
  • dealer supplied Shure N91 phono cartridge
First conversion: 1989, London, Ontario, Canada
  • cut down metal motorboard to approx. BD1 dimensions
  • fit Acrylic sheet inlay plinth top in order to mount SME 3009 Series II Improved pickup arm
  • Shure V15 Type IV phono cartridge replaces N91
  • replace original platter mat with Angstrom Ultimat high-density rubber
Second conversion: 2010, London, Ontario, Canada
  • fabricated replacement plinth from 2 layers of 5/8" mdf board to reduce plinth resonance via constrained layer damping and to stiffen the motor board to pickup arm interface
  • Internal rewire of SME 3009 Series II with Cardas 33ga
  • new belt
Craig

James hadn't quite finalized the positions of the 3 feet at the time of taking these photos. Note the similarity of the plinth to that of the old Revolver turntable; he had liked the look of one that had been collecting dust at mine and decided to copy the look (if not quite the execution, as his upper and lower boards are attached).
DSCI0070.jpg

DSCI0084.jpg


DSCI0075.jpg


DSCI0067.jpg
 
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Yes nice, I'll second that.


Just to post that I will post up pics and info of my BD1 setup soon. I have obtained the sacred articles on BD1 mods, but they are too big a job for me right now. Projects for the future for sure.

In the meantime my BD1 setup is very modest. A simple platform, and a well set up quality arm and cart. Apart from that it's stock, just assembled with love. Even in this simple form the conny BD1 is a beautiful sounding machine to my ears.

cheers,
Paul.
 
"...I have obtained the sacred articles on BD1 mods, but they are too big a job for me right now. Projects for the future for sure.."

sa•cred (s kr d)
adj.
1. Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
2. Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
3. Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.
4. Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
5. Worthy of respect; venerable.
6. Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices.
________________________________________


Don’t know which one of these you have in mind.

However, I would point out to those who have 5-10 minutes that you can, like one distinguished pfmer who posts on this thread has done, try one of the simpler mods and one, in particular, that should take you 5-10 minutes.

This one is the ‘Farkas’ mat mod. You could just put five (5) pennies on the existing mat (NOT three (3) as I stated in the article), equidistant from the spindle, and put a round piece of something- say a piece of cloth or thin card on top of each penny as an temporary experiment. The pennies should be at the outer part of the area under where the label sits, and not on the groove area of the record. Oh and yes, you will need a record clamp or some weights to hold the record down onto the covered pennies.

Play a record or two and tell us your findings.
 
It won't take 5-10 mins if I don't have a record weight or clamp. :(

However I have tried a version of this. Please tell me this won't work but pennies and a clamp do work because I tried this version of this and it didn't work.

From an old record I was throwing out I cut out the centre label. Then I got some sticky plastic feet and put them on the label towards the edges. The plastic feet were only 2 or 3 mm high. When it spun it looked like one of those transcription TT"s with the suction like cups.

Low and behold the record was in free space and I gave it a go. Of course I heard quite a "difference". It sounded cleaner. Bass was full of tight lines. Thought I was on a winner, but 2 days later I was sitting there when I slowly became aware I was missing something. Some part of the musicality was missing. I tried it back the way it was and the life came back to the music.

I left it normal ever since. Perhaps I'll give it another go, but I was pretty sure the first time it didn't work for good.

Maybe pennies and a record clamp would be different. Don't know.
 
It seems to me that you are making things more complicated and difficult than they need to be.

I don’t know why you chose a record in bad enough condition to be thrown out; better to use one of quite reasonable condition and fidelity so as to assess the result.

I don’t know why you ‘cut out’ the centre label- or how you did this. It is completely unnecessary to do so and could account for the extended time taken by your trial.

I have not experimented with plastic feet- sticky or otherwise. Would it not be possible for you to use pennies- or if these are unavailable or too expensive, some metal or even fibre washers of about the thickness of a penny? It may be that the feet you used adversly affected things- I don’t know.

If you use fibre washers there is no chance of damaging the record label, and you can skip the bit about covering them. Even metal washers won’t damage the label with only a few plays, uncovered.

I am an (ex) musician and have never understood what people mean by ‘musicality’.

At any rate, the areas where you should have noticed a difference remain not commented upon by you.

I can only suggest that you try again, using the above suggestions.

This should take you about 5-10 minutes- provided that you do not throw in any complicated unnecesary procedures.

I should mention that a record clamp or implement specifically designed for records is not necessary for experimental purposes.

You could simply use a few household items instead, such as 50p pieces or pound coins or metal washers (or what have you?) and put these on top of the record label after it is on the turntable, to approximate the weight of a proper record clamp.

Look forward to hearing from you again.

P.S. I should have added that the additional height of the record COULD upset fidelity using certain cartridges that are vta sensitive. If possible, raise the arm by the same amount that the record is raised.
 
Dear Eguth,
you seem to have become a bit personal about this. Which is a bit disappointing, unnecessary and unbecoming. I'm hoping that we will become friends.:)

- I never said I used the dud record to PLAY it or test with it silly. I used it to cut out the centre label area to use as a platform with the little feet instead of pennies. I didn't use it for playing or for the testing! lol:) What dill do you take me for? Maybe it's electronic media that is easy to misread. Never mind.

- I didn't say my trial took "extended time". I said I couldn't do your exact trial as I don't have a clamp.

- Rest assured pennies are not too expensive. Very funny mate. We don't have pennies in Australia. They went out with the Arc. I'm sure we have other coins I can try.

- Lets debate musicality another day.

- I promise not to "throw in" any unnecessary complicated procedures :) please, lol.

- I tried again tonight my "label + feet platform" and can confirm it is a big step backwards.

- Just for you my friend:) no and me, I will try 50cent pieces with some sort of home made clamp or weight and report back. BUT, I don't claim to have quite as much experience as you but I still have 30 odd gen X years experience in audio and I'm in the Melbourne Audio Club and I have heard many many systems. And I promise you this conny is the ducks guts even stock. It is sounding FAB as I write and raising the record above the platter so far is a degrade in sound. Trust me.

I will give it another go. Appreciate the conversation, really. Cheers BD1 brother,
Paul in Australia no pennies!:).
 
Ok, I think it's working. It has to be coins. They seem to make the difference. I have 4 50 cent pieces with a little bit of blu tac underneath on the bare platter. Old mat is removed to keep the same VTA. It also MUST have the clamp. Since I don't have a real one I made small platforms from more old wrecked records. Just cut the vinyl with tinsnips to make 'em. Then you get a flat surface since the spindle is now covered. Then I taped some old 9v batts on the top flat surface.

It sounds like a bucket of grunge has been removed. I noticed bigger soundstage straight away. But over all it's cleaner. I A/B'd it with my old attempt and this seemed way different straight away. It just sounds better I think. Sounds good now. Still I will wait a few days and see if still so happy. In case it's hear a difference but it's not better syndrome. But I think this time it's really different. NICE.:)

P.
 
pauly99

You have now tried almost the same version of the Farkas mod that I have used for more than twenty years.

Never having been to Austrialia I am unfamiliar with the size of your 50p piece. However, the size may not make a lot of difference providing that it is solid- which I presume it is. I have seen some hollow coins, but not from Australia. The NUMBER of coins may well be of some importance, and I suggest you try with one additional coin- making a total of five (5). This should improve stability of the rotating record.

The other thing that occurs to me to say is that vta may be critical with certain cartridges. In these cases it can only be optimumly set by ear, which invariably takes many hours of listening to a variety of music. It would be of interest to learn which cartridge and arm you are using.

You still have not commented on the most important parameter of change the Farkas mod should bring about. It might be an idea to try something on top of the coins. I use two layers of felt, which I think is ideal. You could try some kind of cloth.

I hope that you have some records left after this experiment.
 
:) lol, I'm only chopping up records that were unplayable even after copious love and cleaning in the nosti. They were rescued from my dump bin after I realised I could probably use them for something:). Like an impromptu clamp device with old 9v batts. I have looked at clamps to buy online. Nearly bought one today. No rush. The sound at present is outstanding I think, but I'm a bit cautious to conclude given many times in the past I have backtracked on my conclusions just because I heard a difference only. But I'm listening to the old Mike Oldfield tube bells right now and I don't think I've ever heard it so transparent.

I'm excited to try some cloth next. Will let you know. plus more coins. I have run out of 50 cent pieces though for now. The VTA should be as before as I removed the rubber matt. I checked and it's exactly the width of a 50 cent piece. I agree VTA can be important.

I am using an ortofon Rhomann cart I bought very recently when my MC30 Supreme suspension died. I was VERY sad. Any info anyone has on the Rohmann I would welcome. It is very good but a VERY different animal to my mc30s. The arm is a "wand" from Simon Brown in New Zealand. google it. The wand is the actual reason why I got the conny off the floor and put it together a couple of months back. I have had the conny for a few years. I bought it as a future muck about project. My Dad had one and it was good. So through the Melb Audio Club I got the opportunity to try the wand and I needed a table. Didn't want to touch my then production rig, technics sl1200 /sme3009mkIIimproved and the mc30s. Well! When I got the mc30s into the wand on the conny BD1 I realised I had never heard the mc30s before. Colour/timbre of instruments came alive and the musicality :') soared. I think the conny has awesome musicality. PRATT, pace rythm and timing. + all else. So the wand got me into the conny... I digress:). Now for some cloth.

chs, P.
 
Its worth recording the various combinations to compare

one of the nicer combos I've tried is with a flat 10" vinyl single with 3 adhesive gel pads stuck to the 10" single - I use 3 pads because the LP lays flatter than with 5 - with 5 there always seems to be a daylight gap on some of the pads (shine a strong light behind)

Its worth an experiment
 
Its worth recording the various combinations to compare

one of the nicer combos I've tried is with a flat 10" vinyl single with 3 adhesive gel pads stuck to the 10" single - I use 3 pads because the LP lays flatter than with 5 - with 5 there always seems to be a daylight gap on some of the pads (shine a strong light behind)

Its worth an experiment

Fascinating. In my case I always get an increase of 'The Wobbles' using 3 instead of 5 coins. However I do not use gel pads fitted to a 10" single so what you say is, no doubt, correct when using these.
 
Ok, I have 6 50 cent pieces ( maybe should try just 5 ) and I have a small piece of cloth over each. I don't think there was much change going from 4 to 6 coins, but the cloth surprised me quite a bit. First I noticed was better bass. Then amazing soundstage, but then it was huge before. The tone throughout was better with cloth. The instruments more fleshed out. Without cloth a bit harder and more clinical. I could hear an increase in detail and clarity so I guess either distortion or noise must be reduced. Blacker background is probably how you could describe it. Since distortion would be cart setup and this is not altered, I guess it's noise reduction from the platter. So again I expected nothing with cloth, but yes it worked. Coins and cloth set to become permanent. Thanks for the tip! Would never have guessed cloth or even thought the raise record into thin air mod was worth persisting with after my first attempt!

Also still amazed at the wide difference between my mc30s and the rhomann cart. So different I kept thinking the rhomann must be wrong. But it just keeps me absolutely glued to the listening. This and the coin/cloth that really enables me to hear what this cart can do has been awesome. I'm still getting to know it all.

P.
 
pauly99

I have now completed my in- depth research on Australian coins. I have dicovered that the 50p piece from Australia is gigantic. It is a wopping 31.5 mm in diameter. In fact, it is one of the largest in size amongst all the world’s currency being circulated.

I would suggest that it be exchanged for five (5) English pennies, each having a diameter of only 20.32 mm. There are plenty of English in Australia- or so I believe- and if you cannot find one to loan you 5p worth of pennies why not ask them to have 5 included next time they receive a parcel from the mother county?

Coins under the record should be ODD in number- i.e. either 3 or 5 but NOT 2,4, or 6. This it to avoid excessive case of ‘the wobbles’

Should comparisons demonstrate that Australian 50p pices are better than English 1p for this purpose we shall have to start importing Australian 50p coins to England.

Also, Have Fun is an architect- and one of distinction- so what he said about experimenting with record support should be taken seriously.
 
Some TT designs are based on platterless designs where the record is clamped on the label with the vinyl in free space unsupported & undamped.

You can duplicate this quite easily using a spacer & a clamp - it does give a different presentation but the clamp / weight needs to be a good one.

Not forgetting the BD1 & BD2 have 10” platters so 1” of the lp overhangs & is already in free space. Therefore direct comparison between other 12” TT platter designs & mats is more questionable.

Many (most all rubber mat) designs use a variety of spots to raise the lp & give support (see Vintage Top Players from Sony / Yamaha etc) the spots vary in size somewhere between approx 35mm to 12mm. eg One Sony uses 8 large spots with 4 inner smaller spots. Then you have the aftermarket Spotmatics etc.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z236/RogerEvansDesign/SonyPS1350.jpg

Note - The original concentric connoisseur mat actually gives minimal contact (top of 8 ridges only [ie the tangents]) & I would reckon the contact surface area is far less than any spot design. Yet the mat also gives more consistent support to the LP. If I want less wobble the Connoisseur mat is the best I’ve tried.

From the trials I’ve done each different mat provides a different result, with some more pleasing than others – this being a personal preference only ie no right or wrong.

At some point in the future I intend to get hold of some small minute gel pads & try these on an inner & outer ring layout

edit - gel sheets http://www.shockandvibration.co.uk/Gel-Anti-Vibration-Mat.php
 


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