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Sugden Connoisseur - lost classic? (part II)

Thank you Ron, eguth and Have Fun.
I have fun indeed.

I have also compared the bearings from both TT:s, and the BD2 is the winner even there. To get the same smooth performance from the BD1 bearing I had to put a PTFE thrust plate between the spindle and the ball in the bearing. I know from experience that the effect is eventually lost when the thrust plate gets compressed/worn, so I am happy to have one good bearing and one good motor.

I will make a few suspensions since enough is not too many. I intend to use an outboard motor - probably the BD2 one. Good suspension can't be wrong even then. Minimum vibration for the belt and less backgroud noise is what I want.

For plinth, I intend to use one of these:

aptitlig-slaktarblock__0244577_PE383994_S4.JPG


http://www.ikea.com/se/sv/catalog/products/00233429/

It is made from bamboo in several layers. If interested, you can zoom in if you follow the link provided. I will turn it upside down and bolt the top plate and arm to it. (I will also add mass, probably concrete as per AC).

Do you think the thickness, 33mm, will cause the support to the bearing by the wooden batten and coach bolt to be applied too low? I expect the result of the bearing being fixed at both ends would be enough but I could be wrong. It would be possible to make a snug fit between the bearing and the plinth but I'm not sure whether this would be beneficial.

It would be possible to fit two arms to that plinth if I turn the top plate 90 degrees. Maybe I should prepare the plinth to take my Moerch UP4? This could end up as a top player...
 
abbot

I can but speculate on your bamboo plinth and its effectiveness compared to mine.

The batten support will sit too low. I suggest reaming out enough bamboo in the surrounding area- but not too much. The reamed area will have to be larger than the size of the batten, to allow for insertion and tightening of the coach bolt. The batten should sit about half way down the bearing and, square to the underside of the platter. Personally, I would not use bamboo.

Why not construct a simple 'box' plinth of the recommended size using high grade plywood?

The following may be of interest:

“Bamboo has been used as reinforcement for concrete in those areas where it is plentiful, though dispute exists over its effectiveness in the various studies done on the subject. Bamboo does have the necessary strength to fulfil this function, but untreated bamboo will swell with water absorbed from the concrete, causing it to crack. Several procedures must be followed to overcome this shortcoming…”
 
I returned to this thread to say that I have been re-thinking my idea of using a bamboo plinth. Why change a winning concept without knowing the result of such a change? What bothered me most - using bamboo - was limiting the possibility of reinforcing the bearing the way it should be done. Your response, eguth, is appreciated.

(I know a few people who have had good results by damping bearings using this:

2000031441


It is important to not cut it flush with the end of the bearing).



"Hardwood batten"; should this be oak or what? I will use this in preference of rubber. Maybe I will try the rubber on BD2 to hear what effect it might have.
 
Abbot

BAMBOO
I have nothing against bamboo chopping boards. I own a very large one I bought from LIDL & used it the other day to chop a large wild hare into pieces for jugging.

Would I use this (or any other light- weight material) as a support for hi fi equipment with a view to reducing vibration? Certainly not! Very light materials are not good for this purpose in my opinion, despite them being currently fashionable. They are claimed to dissipate vibration and energy. I heard a demo of Russ Andrew’s ‘TORLYTE’. It looked and felt like cardboard; very expensive cardboard. The demo used it as a speaker stand. The result was permanent disillusion with TORLYTE. Instead of dissipating energy the TORLYTE transferred vibrations to the floor boards below my feet. Not good, and a poor result.

Adding concrete and fixing it to bamboo to give it mass destroys any advantage resulting from the use of light- weight material because it becomes integrated with the concrete. Concrete is a superb material for use in a plinth; it is cheap, easily worked and stiff.

BATTEN
I used Utile (a cheap variety of mahogany). Any hardwood (preferably close- grained) will do. Oak would do but is not usually close- grained. Ramin is. There is no advantage that I can see to using the best, which is possibly MDF (not hardwood) soaked in dope. If you go for this beware! MDF emits carcinogenic fumes when cut, and dope emits toxic ones. You should wear a protective mask and work out of doors.

Before fitting the batten tighten up the underside nut that holds the bearing to the platform; otherwise the batten may not improve performance.

DO NOT USE RUBBER INSTEAD OF A BATTEN! Rubber attacks a different problem; vibration. The purpose of this batten is to attack WOBBLE. A well- fixed batten will audibly improve bass performance of the BD1. This is because ‘wobble’ at the microscopic level will be reduced.

ARM
It is worth cutting extra armboards. You may wish to upgrade arms. High grade ply is good for armboards and can be reinforced on the underside with concrete. I use doped MDF.

In my opinion the (correctly) modified BD1 is worthy of a better arm than a Morch.
 
eguth,

BAMBOO
The reason for my intended choice of bamboo chop board as plinth wasn't a calculated damping one - I just found it to be of about the right size and of rigid appearance. It is no problem to drill it, or fit bolts, wood screws and dedsheet to it. It is easily available but its thickness bothered me since it would place the batten too low down on the bearing. At least that was what I was worrying about. Then again, if I will use birch ply (which I probably will do) or MDF for the sides of the plinth, I can use it all the way.

BATTEN
I will check your suggestions when I now know the desired qualities. The rubber was used on bearings for suspended players.

ARM
There are a lot of arms out there that I have never "listened to". Of those I have listened to, the only arm that has been better than my Moerch (when the set-up was very good) was a Swiss Breuer. Long time ago.

ADJUSTMENT
I believe that spending time properly adjusting equipment used is more rewarding than spending money on new equipment, especially when funds is a limiting factor.

PROJECTS
I have to finish my DIY RCM before starting actual work on ACBD1. Planning and pondering is possible though.
 
The BD1 (modified) long belt (made up of two standard BD1 belts glued together to form one) lasts for a long time before fracturing. However it will break eventually. This usually happens at a very inconvenient time when one is listening to a superb record and when one has a special guest.

To avoid unnecessary delay and embarrassment I always have a spare long belt made up and kept in the listening room, stored in black plastic and then in a closed A4 manila envelope. (Rubber lasts longest when kept in the dark and away from heat).

When I wrote the AC articles some 25 years ago ZAP-A- GAP adhesive was not on the market. Since it has become available I use it instead of superglue. I find that it results in a stronger join that lasts longer.

The thing to do when a belt fractures is to cut off a bit of the old belt with a sharp knife (both sides of the fracture- say only 2mm or so); just enough to dispense with the old adhesive and expose fresh rubber.

Now dip both ends lightly in one drop of zap-a- gap. The less you use the stronger the joint. It is said that you can harden the finished joint with either water or bicarbonate of soda. I have not got much experience of this. I have only used water, and then only once and have yet to see how long the result lasts.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be pleased to hear them.
 
A batten should be stiff, dense, hard and heavy for its size.

Comparisons or tests have not been done by me.

Its purpose is to grip the bearing and (ideally) render it absolutely immovable in terms of microscopic WOBBLE relative to the BD1 PLATFORM.

A step too far would be to say “relative to the PLATTER”. Looseness within the bearing (at the bearing/spindle interface) will determine relative wobble at the PLATTER (in addition).

So… in the larger frame…BEARING wobble will create platter wobble IN ADDITION to that created at the bearing/spindle interface.

That said, any batten made from any material that will hold the bearing rigid in relation to the platform will do. Vibration or movement in or of the batten when tightly gripping the bearing would, I suppose, have to be substantial in microscopic terms to materially affect things.

Take a ludicrous example to bring a point home. A batten made of sponge would not be as effective as one of hard fired clay. But a sponge batten could not make TOTAL wobble- affecting the stylus retrieval- any worse, even if the platter (only the platter) were also made of sponge.

An ineffective batten does not create bearing wobble; it just fails to tackle it.
 
I just found and joined your forum, which has been going for years and is really impressive!

In 1976, I bought in Canada a Connoisseur BD-1 (120-volt 60Hz) with an SME 3009 Improved (fixed shell) and Shure V15 Type IV, which I mounted on a mahogany board and attached to a Dynaco PAT-4A Preamp and Dynaco Stereo 120 Amp. (in kits, I was student).

For 17 years, this system traveled with me in several duty stations in the Caribbean and in East Africa. Then, for the last 26 years it stayed well packed in a box.

Obviously, the BD1 motor suspension-rubber bands are dead.

I ordered and received two new belts and a new 60 Hz motor pulley from Technical & General.

The Dynaco Preamp-Amp are still working!

I still have the original Connoisseur, SME, Shure and Dynaco instruction/books.

I did not find recent discussions in the forum about the BD1 motor suspension rubber bands neither where I can purchase a new and more powerful motor with new and improved suspension.

I found some old discussions about using mountain bike inner tube; but I did not see any blue prints nor pictures.

Do you suggest any recent DIY improvements on the BD1?
 
Jsmd

Welcome. A man after my own heart (as they say).

As you noted, this thread is of long standing. Many of your queries have already been answered, some repeatedly.

The answers will be found by you if you start at the beginning (Part 1 of the thread) and read the entire Part 1, and then the entire Part 2. You will find the link to access Part 1 at the beginning of this thread (which is Part 2).

The new suspension (which does not use rubber bands) and a new more powerful motor can be purchased from T&G.

The new suspension can be further improved DIY at home, as you will discover when you read the entire thread.

You refer to mountain bike inner tube. I use motor scooter/motor cycle inner tube both for the improved new suspension and for the waterbed support for the custom plinth.

DIY improvements to the BD1 are what I go in for. My (modified) BD1 took 19 years before I published my article on it, and it is still being improved.

Best wishes and please keep us informed on this thread about your progress.
 
Thanks for your prompt reply.
I sent an email to T&G and wait for their reply.
How can I get your article?
 
Send Eguth a PM is how you will find out about the DIY article I did a week or two back.

I got the article as stated in electronic form once I had paid a small to Eric's pension fund pot.

No I have not forgotten to do what we discussed Eric, I will do but got a few other things to deal with right now which are top priority.
 
I contacted T&G. They just told me that new Connoisseur motors are no longer available.

Any suggested replacement (110v, 60hz and same rpm for BD1 pulley)?
 
options now seem to be:

1) use your existing motor, but do not put too much extra weight on the platter by way of dedshete, or under the platter;

2) contact T&G and ask whether they will recondition your motor and turn it into the more powerful model.
 
If I were living in UK, i would snatch a 'Connoiseur' from the bay. Take note of the lacking 's' if you look for it.
 
The other day I happened to try an inexpensive epoxy adhesive called ‘Mr. DIY Epoxy’ that I got off Ebay.

It is manufactured by BONNINGTON PLASTICS LTD. It is not stated to be suitable for rubber. However it did cross my mind that if used sparingly to join two BD1 belts it might result in a permanent join.

I have not tried it on belts, but wonder whether anyone has experience of using epoxy to join rubber or has any thoughts on using it to join two rubber belts?
 
There is no flex in the epoxy though. There are two types of cement that may be of use.
Both are for rubber dingys. One is for PVC dingy and the other for Hypalon dingys. They may or may not work. There's also a black adhesive that bonds butyl rubber and EPDM sheet......used for flat roofs.
 
lexi

That is helpful.

It would assist if you could name some brand names of the adhesives you suggest, available in small amounts and, if not widely available, some suppliers (preferably online).

What is a 'hypalon dingy'?

Thanks.
 
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