Subs n Lows

[camverton]

It’s slightly over a year since I last looked at subs but broadly BK Electronics are good value and well thought of by many. REL clearly make a decent product (sometimes claimed to be made by BK) but at a price, although deals may make them more competitive. SVS seemed quite good value for money albeit some of their lower priced models are a bit light in weight and cabinets can be inclined to resonate. The great thing about SVS is their app which can make life a lot easier, particularly if integrating the sub by ear. If interested in other brands it might be useful to see if they have a comparable app. In a previous setup the best position for my nearly twenty year old SVS sub was somewhat awkward as adjusting it involved crawling on hands and knees with a mirror and a torch!

If on a budget look for quality of construction in preference to the money being spent on a fancy finish. My first REL sub was big, black and ugly but sounded good, the second was smaller, looked much nicer but not much good and they both had plate amps that developed a hum. My now elderly SVS sub sounded great, was finished in a nice real wood veneer so looked nice - quite important for such a big lump, but was a bit of a pig to tune with pots on the back that weren’t accurately calibrated although that wasn’t a problem once I started using REW. I now have a couple of SVS 1000 pros which are small but give decent bass, don’t look particularly nice, are a breeze to set up with the app but there is some cabinet resonance when listening to Yello. I think I would have been better to go for the next model up, but that is so often the case. Overall, though, they work well for my use in my room.

Ideally try setting them up in your own room before buying. A genuinely knowledgeable dealer could be a god send here, particularly if new to subs. Whether they will be able to set up and optimise umpteen models for comparison in your own home is another matter. If you find such a dealer let us know as they will be worth knowing about!

 

[andyr]

Be interested to hear your recommendations. As Amber Audio says I'm a novice when it comes to subs so REL might be a good place to start, but I'm open to all suggestions.

Let me try to assist.

First of all - I was one of these people who - having Maggies for 30 years - thought that "subs would never work ... as they wouldn't be able to "keep up" with the lightweight bass panels"! Then I moved into a new house and installed a pair of sealed, 15" subs - together with a miniDSP unit to deliver my active XOs plus provide delay for the subs, as they were further away from my ears than the Maggies ... and regretted what I'd been missing out on for 30 years!

But my subs were custom made - 15" Dayton "Omnimax" drivers plus an 800w Hypex plate amp, with cabinet dimensions to fit the space that I had provided in my listening room.

So I can't personally recommend a commercial brand of subs. However, a mate of mine (who has the money to buy whatever he wants) uses a pair of 18" Paradigm subs with his MBL 101s ... and SVS gets a good rap amongst my circle of friends.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'd suggest that for someone starting out and with a limitred budget a REL is a perfectly sensible suggestion - loads available to demo/home loan via dealers and bargains to be had ex-dem or used, because they are so popular it's easy to get advice from actual owners on forums.

Beyond REL I think SVS is a great option as a starter sub too, sq on a par with REL and the Phone EQ App makes hearing changes from the listening seat dead easy. They are also fairly common now so similar to REL demo/deals can be had.

Agreed (your text which I made red).

What I don't like about REL is their mantra that "a high level (ie. spkr) connection is the best way to add subs to your system". Absolutely not - that's the simple way - for those who have integrated amps without 'pre-out' sockets ... or HT multichannel amps. The optimal way is:
1. to have stereo subs - or even more!
and
2. employ an XO between subs - so you can roll off the mains ... to:
* reduce the load on the power amp driving the mains (as loud LFs suck a lot of power), and
* reduce the distortion which the main's woofers will have at the lowest frequencies.

Still, other people's preferences do not guarantee your own satisfaction.
I you have a dealer nearby it's worth popping in and giving 2 or 3 subs a listen.

Absolutely!

 

[Amber Audio]

Let me try to assist.

First of all - I was one of these people who - having Maggies for 30 years - thought that "subs would never work ... as they wouldn't be able to "keep up" with the lightweight bass panels"! Then I moved into a new house and installed a pair of sealed, 15" subs - together with a miniDSP unit to deliver my active XOs plus provide delay for the subs, as they were further away from my ears than the Maggies ... and regretted what I'd been missing out on for 30 years!

But my subs were custom made - 15" Dayton "Omnimax" drivers plus an 800w Hypex plate amp, with cabinet dimensions to fit the space that I had provided in my listening room.

So I can't personally recommend a commercial brand of subs. However, a mate of mine (who has the money to buy whatever he wants) uses a pair of 18" Paradigm subs with his MBL 101s ... and SVS gets a good rap amongst my circle of friends.



Agreed (your text which I made red).

What I don't like about REL is their mantra that "a high level (ie. spkr) connection is the best way to add subs to your system". Absolutely not - that's the simple way - for those who have integrated amps without 'pre-out' sockets ... or HT multichannel amps. The optimal way is:
1. to have stereo subs - or even more!
and
2. employ an XO between subs - so you can roll off the mains ... to:
* reduce the load on the power amp driving the mains (as loud LFs suck a lot of power), and
* reduce the distortion which the main's woofers will have at the lowest frequencies.



Absolutely!

You are failing to address the OP query - he’s looking at £400 and has never had a Sub. He hasn’t got the budget for bespoke subs, stereo subs and Mini DSP which on its own is around £1K or electronic XO’s.

REL do not ram the High Level connection method down anyones throat, it’s yet more Internet forum hearsay/lore, the High Level method was the only way decades ago to relatively easily integrate a Sub into a normal 2 channel UK home hifi.

You spent 30 years without subs - after adding a pair of diy subs you didn’t make yourself you’re now an expert…….

 

[camverton]

OK, with a strict budget of £400 I would be looking at BK Electronics; I think they do one with a 12 inch driver for a shade under that. If the budget could be pushed a tad, I’d either go up the BK Electronics range or get an SVS1000pro. Either way I would be looking for a minimum driver size of 12inches. That should give a good taste of what a sub can do and could well be entirely adequate. With very high quality and doubtless expensive mains there is likely a case for spending a lot more but that can end up being many thousands of pounds. it’s all a question of balance and proportion imho. A quick look at Richer Sounds shows a REL with an 8 inch driver for a pound under £700 which doesn’t seem like very good value at all to me!

There is a school of thought that says that unported subs are best for music and ported best for home theatre. i don’t think it’s that simple, and a really good ported sub will be better than a lesser infinite baffle sub. Ported versions of subs tend to be larger and go lower/louder but at a higher price.

Lots of other brands are available of course but I’d be inclined to stick with the specialist sub makers unless one, perhaps, gets a sub the same make as the mains and which is specifically designed to go with your main speakers.

 

[BrendanD]

I bought a pair of REL TZero subs for £900 new a couple of years ago. Very happy with them.
they can be had for around £250 used.

 

[Riotvan]

I use two sealed BK 10" subs for several years and they are great. One of the subs had a bad psu cap from the factory when it arrived which i identified quickly and since i'm handy enough with a soldering iron i got sent a replacement after discussing it. They were fully prepared to have me send in the sub but since i live in Holland i figured just a replacement cap would be more sensible.

All of this to say is for what you pay for BK you get great quality and service. Yes the cap was bad but i doubt it's a regular thing, they have both been solid for 6 years or so now.

 

[andyr]

You are failing to address the OP query - he’s looking at £400 and has never had a Sub. He hasn’t got the budget for bespoke subs, stereo subs and Mini DSP which on its own is around £1K or electronic XO’s.

REL do not ram the High Level connection method down anyones throat, it’s yet more Internet forum hearsay/lore, the High Level method was the only way decades ago to relatively easily integrate a Sub into a normal 2 channel UK home hifi.

You spent 30 years without subs - after adding a pair of diy subs you didn’t make yourself you’re now an expert…….

I detect a curled upper lip, AA.

Sure:

the High Level method was the only way decades ago to relatively easily integrate a Sub into a normal 2 channel home hifi.

... UK or anywhere else. But today, I suggest they should just retire the marketing slogan that "it (High Level connection) is great bcoz it allows the 'flavour' of the main amp to propagate to the sub(s)".

 

[Kev67]

Thanks for replies, been out all day since 9am and just started reading these and I really appreciate the help and suggestions.

It might be a minor detail but I didn't say I had a strict £400 budget, I said in reply to somebody asking me what my budget was "Thanks. I wouldn't want to go much more than £4-500 if I could manage it." I know it's only another £100 or so but I've a funny feeling I'm going to end up going 2nd hand on ebay or refurbed from a dealer so that extra £100 may help! I also said in an earlier post that "I'd prefer a fairly small sub (well my wife would!)if poss" which I realise is probably going to restrict my options. Ideally I want to fit it in a wooden cabinet that I had custom ordered for hifi equipment and storing vinyl and CD's. The height of the space where the sub would go is possibly 12.2" and depth is the same. Width wouldn't be an issue, its approx 20 inches. Some of you are probably thinking I'm putting a lot of restrictions in my way, but trust me I like being married and some of this is to keep my wife onside If I was a single man I would have a total man cave and I would be absolutely skint!
I'll now have a look at BK and SVS subs.

 

[camverton]

Fitting a sub in a wooden cabinet is an interesting idea. My instinct tells me this isn’t a good idea although I could be wrong; think of all the threads about isolation or spiking speakers and at least double the problem for a sub. Definitely something to try before parting with money. My experience with subs is that the bigger and heavier they are the better. The time I had a smaller REL sub I ended up disconnecting it as it wasn’t adding anything of value, ymmv. Some of the smaller modern designs with dual drivers might be worth it though.

 

[Amber Audio]

Thanks for replies, been out all day since 9am and just started reading these and I really appreciate the help and suggestions.

It might be a minor detail but I didn't say I had a strict £400 budget, I said in reply to somebody asking me what my budget was "Thanks. I wouldn't want to go much more than £4-500 if I could manage it." I know it's only another £100 or so but I've a funny feeling I'm going to end up going 2nd hand on ebay or refurbed from a dealer so that extra £100 may help! I also said in an earlier post that "I'd prefer a fairly small sub (well my wife would!)if poss" which I realise is probably going to restrict my options. Ideally I want to fit it in a wooden cabinet that I had custom ordered for hifi equipment and storing vinyl and CD's. The height of the space where the sub would go is possibly 12.2" and depth is the same. Width wouldn't be an issue, its approx 20 inches. Some of you are probably thinking I'm putting a lot of restrictions in my way, but trust me I like being married and some of this is to keep my wife onside If I was a single man I would have a total man cave and I would be absolutely skint!
I'll now have a look at BK and SVS subs.

Put the money to better speakers instead of a compromised sub?

 

[Kev67]

Put the money to better speakers instead of a compromised sub?

Interesting.

However I dont think I can get much better speakers in my set up tbh. They are Gato-50's which cost over £6k new. I got them off a hifi dealer 2nd hand for £2.5 k which is an absolute fortune for me. I know price isn't everything, especially in hifi, but unless I'm mistaken (and I probably am lol) speaker price normally reflects the quality you get.
I said in my initial post it wasn't necessarily bass grunt I was looking for as I thought that was already fine. I was more looking for the sub to take the strain off the speakers regarding the low notes, allowing the speakers to deliver enhanced mid range and treble. I gather this is something that subs can help speakers achieve - again I've maybe got this wrong.

 

[music fiend]

Put the money to better speakers instead of a compromised sub?

Quite right. IME a compromised sub can help in some aspects and be detrimental in others which may lead to having it off must of the time.

 

[Amber Audio]

Interesting.

However I dont think I can get much better speakers in my set up tbh. They are Gato-50's which cost over £6k new. I got them off a hifi dealer 2nd hand for £2.5 k which is an absolute fortune for me. I know price isn't everything, especially in hifi, but unless I'm mistaken (and I probably am lol) speaker price normally reflects the quality you get.
I said in my initial post it wasn't necessarily bass grunt I was looking for as I thought that was already fine. I was more looking for the sub to take the strain off the speakers regarding the low notes, allowing the speakers to deliver enhanced mid range and treble. I gather this is something that subs can help speakers achieve - again I've maybe got this wrong.

It was the putting it into a wooden cabinet and 12.2” height/depth - is that taking into account the mains and signal leads? You can get L shaped ones to save a bit of space. Don’t think there are many Subs around that small.

Personally I don’t think it‘s worth spending on a Sub if you can’t get something bigger and position it properly.

 

[darrenyeats]

Interesting.

However I dont think I can get much better speakers in my set up tbh. They are Gato-50's which cost over £6k new. I got them off a hifi dealer 2nd hand for £2.5 k which is an absolute fortune for me. I know price isn't everything, especially in hifi, but unless I'm mistaken (and I probably am lol) speaker price normally reflects the quality you get.
I said in my initial post it wasn't necessarily bass grunt I was looking for as I thought that was already fine. I was more looking for the sub to take the strain off the speakers regarding the low notes, allowing the speakers to deliver enhanced mid range and treble. I gather this is something that subs can help speakers achieve - again I've maybe got this wrong.

How about your amp?

 

[brab]

I bought a couple of 8 inch subs for bedroom systems during COVID. Pretty much useless. 10 inch is the minimum I think where subs begin to improve on main speakers for bass.

 

[RJohan]

Here is THE sub to aim for:

 

[Kev67]

How about your amp?

Here is my Quad Artera pre. The only outputs not currently in use are the pre outs, the XLR and Aux are used as connections with other bits of kit.

I also have the matching Quad Artera power amp

 

[Pressure23]

I like RELs but I’ve had a little BK sub in the past that was great. BKs are cheap, they have the same connections as a REL, and they have similar quality (BK used to make a lot of REL subs and still do contract manufacturing for other firms).

The don’t have SVS’ app, which is very useful.

However, the killer advantage of BK subs is that they offer a range of finishes so they are easier to blend with the decor. You just don’t get that with other manufacturers.

 

[andyr]

I bought a couple of 8 inch subs for bedroom systems during COVID. Pretty much useless. 10 inch is the minimum I think where subs begin to improve on main speakers for bass.

As you say ... 8" is pretty useless.

However, I would also say 10" is - you need 12" to really get some LFs going! But you can get 12" sealed subs in some quite small cabinets.

 

[darrenyeats]

I also have the matching Quad Artera power amp

I've not heard the Artera but having had a similar position with Audiolab, their monos were a very clear step for *everything* (as you said your aim is better mid top and not just bass). The RRP for 1 Artera mono looks less than your Artera Stereo? A trade-in might get you a lot of the way, plus some extra saving!

Perhaps this could give you a lot of things a sub can't give - or at least a £500 sub? Try before you buy would be ideal ofc.