Should Ched Evans be playing professional soccer?

[deanf]

I absolutely believe in rehabilitation after a punishment has been served for a crime. And he can if he so wishes play professional football, and i would be happy to see that happen.

On the question of whether he is innocent and a miscarriage of justice has been done, if I recall, he had sex with a woman who was too drunk to give consent. This was deemed a rape which seems a perfectly reasonable description of what occurred. Even if for the sake of argument she did give a notional consent, in the state she was in would it not be the better thing to do to err on the side of caution/kindness/social responsibility and not have sex with her? That he professes his innocence yet acknowledges that this woman was very drunk seems to me that he still cannot see the issue. He seems unable to even accept that it was at the very least very poor judgement on his behalf to have sex with her in the state she was in.

This sort of social behaviour would appear to be acted out by too many man and regrettably by too many men who think they have the right either by status or activity or wealth. They don't and maybe this man has been made an example of but unless he can at least see the principle here he, and we are no further forward.

However, the person who had sex with her moments earlier is innocent and she cannot remember the incident. Had Mr Evans lied and said he did not have sex with her he would not have a conviction for rape.

I hear what you're saying but it still seems very dodgy ground to me.

 

[Tony L]

So, to recap: a millionaire football player with full access to the very best our increasingly US-style legal system can provide can't clear his name, yet the rape victim, who obviously provided sufficient evidence to convince a jury as to her plight, has apparently been so harassed and bullied by the sort of scum that "support" football she's had to go into witness protection under a new identity. The thing that baffles me is there are people on this site who'd take the side of the abusive thug over the victim.

 

[deanf]

Am I so wrong to think this comes down to capacity? i.e. the victim's capacity to make a decision about having sex with a second person, and the perpetrators ability to judge her capacity. Bearing in mind the jury conclude the victim consented to the first encounter.

With mental capacity for example (and I'm no expert!), a mental health professional would have one understanding of capacity whereas a solicitor would have another, just as say a pub landlord might another again at any moment in time; but each have a responsibility to consider the mental capacity of others based on their working knowledge at that moment and act appropriately.

Then, is it so conceivable that if he was drunk, and she was drunk, and she said yes at the time (which is what Evans has argued all along and the victim only disputes in so much as she cannot remember and it is out of character for her), that both were willing at that moment in time and therefore consent was given and the capacity test had been applied.

If the jury would've found the first male guilty I would have had far less doubt in my mind, but they didn't.

I don't know what to think anymore!

 

[Minstrel SE]

I dont know how it could possibly work.

Hi lads Im back...guess what Ive been up to!..... as if they didnt know. I cant imagine walking back into an office or a warehouse with that sort of conviction.

Its not easy to dismiss it like "ooh hes a bit of a card" "a cheeky chappy" The fact is that hes been convicted of rape.

They would probably laugh off a twok but when it comes to rape.........Hmmm.

In a team he has to command some sort of respect. The sly digs from competitive team members, rivals and chants from opposing fans would compromise the whole thing.

What is he going to do though?....Hard to go anonymous

Football has to be seen as a stage for role models. Its far from squeaky clean but in this case the managers have to be seen as making a role model decision.

Thats the main problem Evans has. Even if he changes games, I dont think he has a hope of picking up his career.

 

[SteveG]

Then, is it so conceivable that if he was drunk, and she was drunk, and she said yes at the time (which is what Evans has argued all along and the victim only disputes in so much as she cannot remember and it is out of character for her), that both were willing at that moment in time and therefore consent was given and the capacity test had been applied.

If the jury would've found the first male guilty I would have had far less doubt in my mind, but they didn't.

I don't know what to think anymore!

It's quite an unusual case for those two reasons:
1) That the sex was rape was based not on whether she gave consent, but whether she was capable of giving consent and whether that lack of capability to give consent should have been obvious
2) That another man having sex with her during the same incident wasn't also regarded as an incidence of rape

It's probably the combination of those two factors that's seen the review being fast tracked rather than the "celebrity" elements of it, and it's also probably why Evans has some grounds for regarding himself as innocent.

 

[Daniel Quinn]

My support for Chedwyn stems from the fact that the whole sorry state of affairs is an allegory of all that is wrong with our celebrity obsessed media dominated society . In which issue are not examined , dominated by the crass , ill thought out opinions of vested interests and pressure groups . Nuance , subtlety and due diligence are sacrificed for agendas and ignorant opinion in the furtherance of these agenda’s .

All matters deserve to be considered upon their own facts .

To simply say he is convicted rapist and he lost his appeal and leave it as that is lazy and is a recipe for an ignorant dumb society .

Appeals are not retrials , they do not retry the evidence , this was a decision of a jury . An appeal looks at the legal basis of the decision and the trial procedure and decides if it was within the law and if the jury were free to come to the decision they came to in law . An failed appeal is in no way an endorsement or agreement of the decision the jury came to .

It is accepted in law that drunken consent is consent . The case of R v Bree establishes this . Indeed , I would hazard a guess that 75% of 18 to 22 year old who have sex this weekend will be drunk .

The jury found she was in able to give consent to the first person she had sex with but not Ched . She as no memory of the entering the hotel . CCTV and eye witness evidence establishes
• CCTV footage showed the complainant was capable of:
• Squatting down and rummaging through her handbag and getting back up in high heels;
• Walking unaided;
• Holding a conversation with other people;
• Spurning the advances of another male;
• Helping herself to food from other people in the kebab shop;
• Ordering food;
• Paying with the correct coinage;
• Squatting in a doorway to urinate;
• Reacting to a car flashing its lights; and
• Remembering that she had left a pizza outside the Premier Inn and going back to retrieve it.
• Further evidence showed that she was capable of:
• Composing a coherent text message, correctly spelt and capitalized. (text sent to her friend at 02:54)
• Responding to requests – she was asked by the taxi driver to get out of the back seat and get in the front because she was eating a pizza.
• Request that Clayton not to leave her – “you are not going to leave me are you”.
There is no question of here being passes out or not participating . The following morning she deleted the facebook posts and messages she had sent during her time at the hotel .
These are FACTS , they are fact that do not comfortably sit with the demonization of ched evans or of his classification as a rapist and they are facts which every single person who seeks to use him for thier own political or agenda driven purposes ignore .
If you have an opinion of him , then you must deal with these facts .

 

[billo]

However, the person who had sex with her moments earlier is innocent and she cannot remember the incident. Had Mr Evans lied and said he did not have sex with her he would not have a conviction for rape.

I hear what you're saying but it still seems very dodgy ground to me.

Unfortunately, it was all recorded on at least one mobile phone of his mates who were with him at the time (IIRC there was the son of a prem. manager amongst them)
I also do not understand the mentality of his girlfriend (and her mother) who are standing by him.

 

[SteveG]

I also do not understand the mentality of his girlfriend (and her mother) who are standing by him.

I suspect his mother thinks the same as he does i.e. the sex was consensual but that the consent was withdrawn later. It's a bit more difficult to understand why his girlfriend is standing by him though.

 

[cooky1257]

It's quite an unusual case for those two reasons:
1) That the sex was rape was based not on whether she gave consent, but whether she was capable of giving consent and whether that lack of capability to give consent should have been obvious
2) That another man having sex with her during the same incident wasn't also regarded as an incidence of rape

It's probably the combination of those two factors that's seen the review being fast tracked rather than the "celebrity" elements of it, and it's also probably why Evans has some grounds for regarding himself as innocent.

My position too.

The only side I'm taking is that of natural justice.

 

[gassor]

2) That another man having sex with her during the same incident wasn't also regarded as an incidence of rape

Don't understand your thinking. Could it not be that she, having had sex with one guy, just wanted to go to sleep and wasn't in the mood for any more?

 

[SteveG]

Don't understand your thinking. Could it not be that she, having had sex with one guy, just wanted to go to sleep and wasn't in the mood for any more?

If she's said yes to the other guy and no to Evans then absolutely. I don't think that was ever an argument in this case though. The whole thing appears to be about whether she was too drunk to consent - not on whether she consented with Evans. If she was too drink to consent with Evans then I can't really understand (given what I've read of the case) why she wasn't also too drunk to consent with the other chap.

 

[Daniel Quinn]

Don't understand your thinking. Could it not be that she, having had sex with one guy, just wanted to go to sleep and wasn't in the mood for any more?

it could be , but that is not a finding of this case . She participated actively according to the two and she as no memory .

No force or coercion was used or alleged .

It assists if you keep your speculation out of the debate .

 

[KC Cantiaci]

My support for Chedwyn stems from the fact that the whole sorry state of affairs is an allegory of all that is wrong with our celebrity obsessed media dominated society . In which issue are not examined , dominated by the crass , ill thought out opinions of vested interests and pressure groups . Nuance , subtlety and due diligence are sacrificed for agendas and ignorant opinion in the furtherance of these agenda’s .

All matters deserve to be considered upon their own facts .

To simply say he is convicted rapist and he lost his appeal and leave it as that is lazy and is a recipe for an ignorant dumb society .

Appeals are not retrials , they do not retry the evidence , this was a decision of a jury . An appeal looks at the legal basis of the decision and the trial procedure and decides if it was within the law and if the jury were free to come to the decision they came to in law . An failed appeal is in no way an endorsement or agreement of the decision the jury came to .

It is accepted in law that drunken consent is consent . The case of R v Bree establishes this . Indeed , I would hazard a guess that 75% of 18 to 22 year old who have sex this weekend will be drunk .

The jury found she was in able to give consent to the first person she had sex with but not Ched . She as no memory of the entering the hotel . CCTV and eye witness evidence establishes
• CCTV footage showed the complainant was capable of:
• Squatting down and rummaging through her handbag and getting back up in high heels;
• Walking unaided;
• Holding a conversation with other people;
• Spurning the advances of another male;
• Helping herself to food from other people in the kebab shop;
• Ordering food;
• Paying with the correct coinage;
• Squatting in a doorway to urinate;
• Reacting to a car flashing its lights; and
• Remembering that she had left a pizza outside the Premier Inn and going back to retrieve it.
• Further evidence showed that she was capable of:
• Composing a coherent text message, correctly spelt and capitalized. (text sent to her friend at 02:54)
• Responding to requests – she was asked by the taxi driver to get out of the back seat and get in the front because she was eating a pizza.
• Request that Clayton not to leave her – “you are not going to leave me are you”.
There is no question of here being passes out or not participating . The following morning she deleted the facebook posts and messages she had sent during her time at the hotel .
These are FACTS , they are fact that do not comfortably sit with the demonization of ched evans or of his classification as a rapist and they are facts which every single person who seeks to use him for thier own political or agenda driven purposes ignore .
If you have an opinion of him , then you must deal with these facts .

Why must we? He was convicted by a judge and jury who sat and listened to these 'facts' being presented by lawyers over many hours/days in great detail I'm sure. The appeal was also overturned. These are also 'facts' that aid others judgement of him.

What you're saying is the judge and jury are wrong? Maybe he should have gotten better lawyers to argue his case?

But to add to your list of facts, this was also put forward in court 'The CCTV footage showed that while she was inside the kebab shop she was unsteady on her feet, at one point she fell over and landed on the floor. On the other hand, outside the kebab shop she could be seen eating pizza from a large box, although she was also seen to stumble, squat, lose her balance, and walk unsteadily. Indeed, she left her handbag in the shop. Based on this evidence, the prosecution case was that she was very drunk.'

 

[Joe Hutch]

it could be , but that is not a finding of this case . She participated actively according to the two and she as no memory .

No force or coercion was used or alleged .

It assists if you keep your speculation out of the debate .

Given that none of us were actually in the hotel room, speculation is all we have.

 

[Daniel Quinn]

Given that none of us were actually in the hotel room, speculation is all we have.

if you are correct , then how has he been convicted ?

But you are not correct .

we have the two accussed statements .

we also had a porter who heard consensual sex taking place and stated he did not have any concerns for the girl .

there is no allegation that the sex was not consensual, he spent several minutes giving her oral sex !!! just capacity for consent was reduced or not possible through intoxication .

the appeal judgement makes this all perfectly clear .

 

[Joe Hutch]

if you are correct , then how have they been convicted ?

But we dont -

we have the two accussed statements .

Indeed. I'm always baffled how prosecutions for rape succeed when all there is to go on is one person's word against another's (ie no evidence of violence/coercion). Surely 'reasonable doubt' must exist in such cases?

 

[Daniel Quinn]

Why must we? He was convicted by a judge and jury who sat and listened to these 'facts' being presented by lawyers over many hours/days in great detail I'm sure. The appeal was also overturned. These are also 'facts' that aid others judgement of him.

What you're saying is the judge and jury are wrong? Maybe he should have gotten better lawyers to argue his case?

But to add to your list of facts, this was also put forward in court 'The CCTV footage showed that while she was inside the kebab shop she was unsteady on her feet, at one point she fell over and landed on the floor. On the other hand, outside the kebab shop she could be seen eating pizza from a large box, although she was also seen to stumble, squat, lose her balance, and walk unsteadily. Indeed, she left her handbag in the shop. Based on this evidence, the prosecution case was that she was very drunk.'

Becuase otherwise we have a dumb stupid society

very drunk , is not rape . I confess to having sex whilst very very drunk and with very very drunk women at a similar age to Ched. And I would be hard pushed to meet someone who as not .

 

[gassor]

It assists if you keep your speculation out of the debate .

I would hazard a guess that 75% of 18 to 22 year old who have sex this weekend will be drunk .

Priceless

 

[stonehenge]

I would imagine that this has already been said. It doesn't matter about the case in detail, it has been dealt with by capable people with all of the evidence.

He now has a criminal record and is recorded as a sex offender. He is also a Professional Footballist. Due to his new status, he can't apply his profession overseas and can only do so in the UK. He has served his time, so can legally work again - but the populous doesn't want him. The very game he loves to play is solely dependant on this audience.

I can't see any club taking the risk as they would lose sponsors and gate money. The only thing he could do is try to win over the people in some way, but I can't see how he could achieve any sort of PR.

His punishment will go on and on. It should be a learning experience for all young men, particularly young footballers.

I guess he will do what I believe most in this situation do - either give up on life, live off his family, try to start a business or turn to religion.

Sad really.....

 

[Daniel Quinn]

I would imagine that this has already been said. It doesn't matter about the case in detail, it has been dealt with by capable people with all of the evidence.

He now has a criminal record and is recorded as a sex offender. He is also a Professional Footballist. Due to his new status, he can't apply his profession overseas and can only do so in the UK. He has served his time, so can legally work again - but the populous doesn't want him. The very game he loves to play is solely dependant on this audience.

I can't see any club taking the risk as they would lose sponsors and gate money. The only thing he could do is try to win over the people in some way, but I can't see how he could achieve any sort of PR.

His punishment will go on and on. It should be a learning experience for all young men, particularly young footballers.

I guess he will do what I believe most in this situation do - either give up on life, live off his family, try to start a business or turn to religion.

Sad really.....

This is precisely my point . If the facts of this sorry state of affairs were debated publicly I consider the general consensus will be that he should allowed to return to football .

However , there is a conspiracy of silence because it fits into a feminist agenda that male sexual attitudes to women are dysfunctional . There is some truth in this , but ched evans is collateral damage in this debate .