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Should Ched Evans be playing professional soccer?

Daniel Quinn said:
This is precisely my point . If the facts of this sorry state of affairs were debated publicly I consider the general consensus will be that he should allowed to return to football .
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How would that be managed, exactly? How could you gauge 'the general consensus' as opposed to the opinion of a small but vocal minority?
 
This is not about whether it was or was not an act of rape.

He has been tried and sentenced, his declaration of innocence or otherwise is irrelevant.

The issue is whether he should be allowed to go back to his career after his punishment. I do not believe it is morally right to further punish him by denying him freedoms which the rest of us have. That goes for all criminals. We should leave it to our judicial system to determine the level of punishment, in the same way that the girl's father should not be supported in taking matters in to his own hands and meting out whatever further punishment he sees fit.

With regard to the victim receiving threats then those perpetrators should also be identified and dealt with. Unlike Tony I don't believe that any pfm members would be involved in that kind of behaviour. Furthermore this is not about supporting the victim over the criminal, it is about accepting the process of establishing guilt, punishment and rehabilitation.
 
Joe Hutch said:
How would that be managed, exactly? How could you gauge 'the general consensus' as opposed to the opinion of a small but vocal minority?
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I would start by allowing somebody on bbc TV and radio to articulate the facts of the conviction every time it is discussed .
 
Daniel Quinn said:
Becuase otherwise we have a dumb stupid society

very drunk , is not rape . I confess to having sex whilst very very drunk and with very very drunk women at a similar age to Ched. And I would be hard pushed to meet someone who as not .
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I guess it's down to what you classify as 'very drunk'. You listed a load of 'facts' in an effort to suggest she was coherent enough to be able to walk, squat etc. but the opposite was being presented suggesting she was unsteady and fell over in the takeaway shop. There are different levels of 'drunkness' and I would suggest being, let's call it 'tipsy' is different from a state of drunkness where you can't stay on your feet. I for one wouldn't have sex with someone in a state where they are that drunk..... but that's me.

Also, this 'dumb and stupid society' has 12 people on a jury to analyse the cases being made by opposing lawyers. These 12 individual people reached a unanimous/majority conclusion based on the presented evidence they heard in great detail. Maybe we should scrap the system if it gets it wrong in such an obvious case??

And how does a porter hearing a 'couple having sex' through a door conclude it is consensual? AFAIK, he wasn't actually present when she said 'yes'?
 
Joe Hutch said:
And then what? A 'Strictly Come Dancing' style voting system to ascertain the general consensus?
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The media is very adept at gauging if a story as legs . Put out the facts and this story will die , that is how public support will be gauged , nobody will be interested .
 
I take comfort from the knowledge that the impotent ramblings of middle aged men in a hi-fi chat room will have absolutely no influence on anything at all. Best place for it.
 
"And how does a porter hearing a 'couple having sex' through a door conclude it is consensual?"

If you need me to tell you that , you are not doing it properly . :)
 
Daniel Quinn said:
The media is very adept at gauging if a story as legs . Put out the facts and this story will die , that is how public support will be gauged , nobody will be interested .
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Actually, all news stories die naturally anyway, as different stories emerge to distract the public's attention.

There are two separate issues here: 1) was the conviction safe; 2) even if it was safe, should this bloke be allowed to play football again? The trouble is that the two are inextricably tangled, because the bloke is contesting his conviction and on that basis, is deemed not to be 'showing remorse'. If he showed remorse, he'd be deemed to have 'reformed' and be allowed to play football, but as he hasn't, he's seen to be 'unreformed' so can't play football. A classic Catch-22 situation.
 
MVV said:
I take comfort from the knowledge that the impotent ramblings of middle aged men in a hi-fi chat room will have absolutely no influence on anything at all. Best place for it.
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You would be wrong .

people on chat rooms also talk to people , they exchange ideas and opinions with other people , that they have argued , formulated or learnt on chatrooms .


in that way they influence other people . It is called dialectical socialisation .
 
We will see how far your 'dialectical socialisation' gets you. I doubt even the thread survives the week because you will be 'debating' other vitally important matters by then. Having opinions and sharing them, as if anyone gives a ****.
 
MVV said:
We will see how far your 'dialectical socialisation' gets you. I doubt even the thread survives the week because you will be 'debating' other vitally important matters by then. Having opinions and sharing them, as if anyone gives a ****.
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Such cynicism . You must be old .
 
Daniel Quinn said:
However , there is a conspiracy of silence because it fits into a feminist agenda that male sexual attitudes to women are dysfunctional .
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And who are these feminists who are creating the conspiracy? When did they take over the media and why has no-one else come up with such a ridiculous assessment of the situation? Good job you are here to enlighten us.
 
Daniel Quinn said:
My support for Chedwyn stems from the fact that the whole sorry state of affairs is an allegory of all that is wrong with our celebrity obsessed media dominated society . In which issue are not examined , dominated by the crass , ill thought out opinions of vested interests and pressure groups . Nuance , subtlety and due diligence are sacrificed for agendas and ignorant opinion in the furtherance of these agenda’s .

All matters deserve to be considered upon their own facts .

To simply say he is convicted rapist and he lost his appeal and leave it as that is lazy and is a recipe for an ignorant dumb society .

Appeals are not retrials , they do not retry the evidence , this was a decision of a jury . An appeal looks at the legal basis of the decision and the trial procedure and decides if it was within the law and if the jury were free to come to the decision they came to in law . An failed appeal is in no way an endorsement or agreement of the decision the jury came to .

It is accepted in law that drunken consent is consent . The case of R v Bree establishes this . Indeed , I would hazard a guess that 75% of 18 to 22 year old who have sex this weekend will be drunk .

The jury found she was in able to give consent to the first person she had sex with but not Ched . She as no memory of the entering the hotel . CCTV and eye witness evidence establishes
• CCTV footage showed the complainant was capable of:
• Squatting down and rummaging through her handbag and getting back up in high heels;
• Walking unaided;
• Holding a conversation with other people;
• Spurning the advances of another male;
• Helping herself to food from other people in the kebab shop;
• Ordering food;
• Paying with the correct coinage;
• Squatting in a doorway to urinate;
• Reacting to a car flashing its lights; and
• Remembering that she had left a pizza outside the Premier Inn and going back to retrieve it.
• Further evidence showed that she was capable of:
• Composing a coherent text message, correctly spelt and capitalized. (text sent to her friend at 02:54)
• Responding to requests – she was asked by the taxi driver to get out of the back seat and get in the front because she was eating a pizza.
• Request that Clayton not to leave her – “you are not going to leave me are you”.
There is no question of here being passes out or not participating . The following morning she deleted the facebook posts and messages she had sent during her time at the hotel .
These are FACTS , they are fact that do not comfortably sit with the demonization of ched evans or of his classification as a rapist and they are facts which every single person who seeks to use him for thier own political or agenda driven purposes ignore .
If you have an opinion of him , then you must deal with these facts .
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For all the above reasons and many more it seems patently obvious to me that he is very probably not guilty. She even asked him to perform a sexual act upon her!

That she regretted her actions the next day should have zero bearing on all of this. Let it be a lesson to her on the evils of drink!

Anyone would think he's waited in the bushes in a local park for her, jumped out and overpowered her, gagged her, slapped her about and held her down and raped her judging from the indignation of the press trying to stir up newspaper sales....
 
• Composing a coherent text message, correctly spelled and capitalized. (text sent to her friend at 02:54)
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Well if the above is taken to indicate that the writer is reasonably sober, DQ has a lot of explaining to do. :D
 
Daniel Quinn said:
Put out the facts and this story will die , that is how public support will be gauged , nobody will be interested .
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Fact: guilty of rape.

The issue is what employment rapists or other criminals are allowed to pursue.

It is clear that football clubs would employ him if a) sponsors would agree and b), to a lesser extent, that fans would tolerate it.

I dare say European clubs would have him if the terms of his parole allowed him to leave the country - which apparently it does not?
 
Just because you are found guilty of something does not mean you ARE guilty. I'm sure the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 would have something to say on the matter....
 
I'm sure the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 would have something to say on the matter.

Yeh, they got off
 
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