Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
How much will this hard border cost and how will Scotland pay for it?
Scottish Politics II
- Thread starter TheDecameron
- Start date
How much will this hard border cost and how will Scotland pay for it?
Ponty
pfm Member
Well, Blair told some pretty big whoppers. Lynch is a socialist, I’m a conservative, we’re going to have different views of the world, which can be debated ad infinitum. Doesn’t mean I can’t think he seems a fairly decent bloke (for a lefty).
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
All this left/right stuff. I’d like to ask self-identified conservatives if it is the left wing aspirations (fairer distribution of wealth, decent social provision, a more equitable settlement, basically) that you object to; or could you support that but don’t believe that the left can carry it off?
If it’s the former, why is that? Are you objecting to somebody getting something they haven’t earned or deserved? Or some other reason?
And if the latter, why not? Is it a pipe dream (and if so, why is it?); or is there something else that prevents you from supporting it?
If it’s the former, why is that? Are you objecting to somebody getting something they haven’t earned or deserved? Or some other reason?
And if the latter, why not? Is it a pipe dream (and if so, why is it?); or is there something else that prevents you from supporting it?
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Both involve departure from long-established unions and both have had, or will have, economic 'pain' for the departing nation. I don't understand why the two are different in that regard.
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TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
In short hand- gelt pile anxiety.
wulbert
pfm Member
"I thought this thread was about Scotland"
??? Scotland in the EU? Scotland out of the EU? Voting in the 2014 referendum? What did I say that was not on topic?
"I'm not sure about the well resourced or highly developed bits?????????"
Well resourced: Oil and gas exporter. Often a net electricity exporter. Massive renewable wind and tidal potential. Fisheries. Timber. Agriculture. Whisky exports. Fresh, clean water in abundance. Low density of population. 1/3rd of UK coastline with 8% of population, around 11,000km. Sea area six times land area. maritime climate. Most highly educated workforce in Europe. Huge tourism sector.....
You'd call this "poorly resourced"? Compared to where?
Highly Developed: Airports. Sea ports, including deep water, Oil and gas extraction infrastructure, nuclear power stations, world-class universities, motorways, hospitals, railways, cities, research facilities, police force, fire services, ambulances, schools, nurseries, museums, theatres, national orchestras, safe housing, TV studios....
You'd call this "under developed? Compared to where?
I don't get where you are coming from Richard.
tonerei
pfm Member
I think they will pass on that. Even typing equality would probably create too much stress.
tonerei
pfm Member
What did Blair do that was equal in scale to what is happening now? I would thought Thatcher would have been a closer example of Boris's achievements.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
How many of these would fall under the heading of 'underinvested' at this time? There is only the one nuclear power station left and due to close in 2028 with no plans to build another I'm aware of. My concern, possibly unfounded, is what will happen to a lot of the infrastructure post independence. Oil and gas is on the way out and that is SNP/ Green Party policies let alone the natural decline.
There is a lot of potential wind and tidal stuff yes but how much of this will be home based or us 'getting scraps at the table' from foreign firms. It does look like there is some commitment to taking advantage of North Sea de-commissioning but again a large part of this work is being taken by foreign companies.
Is fishing doing that well?? A lot of the fish is moving North aways due warming temperatures, I can't find reliable figures for how well the industry has weathered the combination of COVID and Brexit issues. I know fish is very expensive when you go and buy fish and chips now and at my 'local' chippie business is down.
As I work in the oil/ gas/ wind industry on the marine side I'm well aware of our facilities and even more well aware that foreign enterprises are making far more out of it than 'we' are!
As I commented elsewhere the Spanish firm pulling out of the wind turbine mast building deal with Global Energy is a big blow.
Would businesses want to invest in an independent Scotland, I'd like to think so but.....
These are my views YMMV.
Regards
Richard
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
They aren't different.
wulbert
pfm Member
Cheers for your reply. I think we are at cross-purposes here. I was using the terms "highly developed" and "well-resourced" in the context of comparing Scotland's ease of re-joining the EU versus say, a less-developed Eastern or Southern European nation. I wasn't trying to imply superpower status. Sixty percent of the world's population doesn't have a flushing toilet and a third don't have running water. Globally, Scotland is a highly developed nation.
PS: Agree about the under investment bit. Especially in terms of actual investment (long-term commitment making a sustainable contribution to the economy. Not the usual short-term, quick gain, extractive model favoured by so many Governments, SNP included)
wulbert
pfm Member
Yeah, that is something that puzzles me too. I rarely hear a Tory supporter explaining their position, or even admitting to being a Tory supporter. So, on some level, they must feel what they are doing is shameful? It seems to be a quiet nursing of resentments and self-interest that only gets expressed in the anonymity of the polling booth (or perhaps freely expressed in the right company?).
wulbert
pfm Member
They are different, but have some similar attributes.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Can you add a bit more detail to that? Just stating it's different doesn't prove a lot. To me (an external observer, granted) it still looks like both are pursuing an ideological path to pander to the ruling party's core membership at the cost of an economic foot / bullet interaction.
tones
Tones deaf
Interesting article in today's FT:
An independence referendum should be the last thing on Sturgeon’s mind
Instead of tackling the cost of living crisis, Scotland’s first minister is sowing national division
Now admittedly this was written by the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, and no doubt Mr. Sarwar has his own barrow to push, but he does make what seem to me to be some good points. He believes that Ms. Sturgeon is positioning herself already for the next General Election. I thought this was quite well put:
Boris Johnson, the prime minister, and Nicola Sturgeon are not polar opposites — in fact, they are in a symbiotic relationship, relying on each other to maintain the political status quo that keeps them in power.
Perhaps I am guilty in finding it interesting because it echoes my own thoughts. I sympathise with the Scottish desire for independence from Westminster - it seems to me that, overall, Scotland has benefitted from the 1707 Act of Union, but, like Ireland, it is a different country from England in all sorts of ways, and those differences have grown over time. However, as a practical proposition, I don't see it as a realistic possibility in the short-medium term.
Nicola Sturgeon doesn't strike me as stupid - I can't help but wonder whether she realises the impracticability of Scottish independence at the moment, but merely bangs the drum to satisfy the faithful. After all, as we have seen increasingly on both sides of the Atlantic, there are substantial proportions of electorates that are quite prepared to deny reality, even when it stares them in the face.
An independence referendum should be the last thing on Sturgeon’s mind
Instead of tackling the cost of living crisis, Scotland’s first minister is sowing national division
Now admittedly this was written by the leader of the Scottish Labour Party, and no doubt Mr. Sarwar has his own barrow to push, but he does make what seem to me to be some good points. He believes that Ms. Sturgeon is positioning herself already for the next General Election. I thought this was quite well put:
Boris Johnson, the prime minister, and Nicola Sturgeon are not polar opposites — in fact, they are in a symbiotic relationship, relying on each other to maintain the political status quo that keeps them in power.
Perhaps I am guilty in finding it interesting because it echoes my own thoughts. I sympathise with the Scottish desire for independence from Westminster - it seems to me that, overall, Scotland has benefitted from the 1707 Act of Union, but, like Ireland, it is a different country from England in all sorts of ways, and those differences have grown over time. However, as a practical proposition, I don't see it as a realistic possibility in the short-medium term.
Nicola Sturgeon doesn't strike me as stupid - I can't help but wonder whether she realises the impracticability of Scottish independence at the moment, but merely bangs the drum to satisfy the faithful. After all, as we have seen increasingly on both sides of the Atlantic, there are substantial proportions of electorates that are quite prepared to deny reality, even when it stares them in the face.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
My word, the FT taking its wisdom from a Labour leader! Is symbiosis Sarwar’s term? His party is quite literally in such a union with the Tory Party- coalitions in local authorities to keep the biggest party out. That’s right, Labour-Tory coalition, allow it to sink in! Lab-con.
I agree with you in one point- timing is everything, irrespective of the present democratic deficit where one country is subject to the political whim of the other in an apparent union who’s members are already divided by their relationship to Europe, the extraordinary differences of their politics and their world view.
Scotland now has far more in common politically and culturally with Ireland. I’m afraid all the Kings horses and all the King’s men can’t put Humpty together again.
I agree with you in one point- timing is everything, irrespective of the present democratic deficit where one country is subject to the political whim of the other in an apparent union who’s members are already divided by their relationship to Europe, the extraordinary differences of their politics and their world view.
Scotland now has far more in common politically and culturally with Ireland. I’m afraid all the Kings horses and all the King’s men can’t put Humpty together again.
monkfish
pfm Member
Abstain from eating?
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
My how we laugh in Scotland when we hear the refrain of Murray Ross- announcing in that unconvincing squeaky little voice that “Nicola Sturgeon should get on with the day job”. Ross struggles with three, often bunking off from two to do the third while drawing full pay twice to sit in Westminster and Holyrood simultaneously. He has a disapproval rating among Scottish voters that would flatter Johnson.
Sarwar stood under his own name in a Scottish Parliamentary constituency and lost. Had the voting system been FPTP like Westminster, Labour would have faced the ignominy of having its leader thrown out by the electorate.