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Scottish Politics II

eternumviti said:
As I've mentioned several times, SNP/Greens are ideologically opposed to the extraction and use of fossil fuels.

The whole issue of a sovereign wealth fund aka Norway is probably moot. Norway is a very different, and infinitely less populous country.



I wouldn't dream of underestimating the EU. Or the Scots. But the EU, as we are smugly and oft reminded, is 'rules based'. Scotland doesn't come within a country mile of meeting those rules-based criteria.

I suppose, of course, that the EU could partake of a little creative accounting (aka cooking of the books) as it did with Greece, but then Scotland doesn't exactly possess Greece's legacy as the cradle of western civilisation, a nice gong for the EU - with all of its entirely synthetic claim to be the modern standard-bearer of that cultural legacy - to have scored.



Oh, now you really are having a larf, though I did wonder who would be the first to come out with it.

The EU, I'll remind you, rapidly shut down promising early discussions of technological border solutions in the WA talks, and have steadfastly refused to countenance them ever since. It doesn't take the mind of a great philosopher to see right through that to the fact that to acknowledge tech solutions would make a complete mockery of its overtly protectionist nature. Virtually the entire issue of complex, black pen and paper-based border checks a quarter of the way through the 21st century is a sham.

No word yet from all the tech experts on here, foremost amongst them TonyL, who have shot me down every time I've mentioned it. Funny, that.



Is it? I think that the response has been interesting, amusing, and entirely predictable. The teeth always show.
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You seem to be confusing absolutism and flexibility, and theory and practice. The SNP/Greens know full well that we all have to take a journey to a low-carbon/green economy, they just want to get there faster than others which does not undermine their commitment to a fossil-free world. Yes, there are plenty of other countries with sovereign wealth funds; it's a shame we squandered the opportunity to have one of our own - no austerity, no levelling up, no Brexit; a high-skilled, high-wage economy...

All organisations and governments have their plusses and minuses but that isn't what we are discussing. I'm sure you agree that the Scotland and the-ever flexible EU will be able hammer out an agreement in due course. Btw, I see you have reverted to your usual narrow and punitive view of the EU (which now is bleeding into your views on Scottish independence). Any chance of putting your "teeth" away for a few days? Might help with your sleep problems.

Weren't you trumpeting tech for NI in the Brexit thread? I even asked you for your views. Radio silence. Do you have any workable solutions for Scotland? And if you really are that upset about borders, paperwork and pens (or is it pencils?), all you have to do is join the Rejoin campaign.

I know you are a huge Farage fan. What in particular appeals? And do you rate him over your man Boris? Maybe start another thread on this one.
 
Joe Hutch said:
It’s confusing/interesting/amusing that those on here most vocal in their condemnation of Scottish independence (because nationalism = bad) were in favour of Brexit (because nationalism = good).

They are also quick to deny that support for Brexit = racism but equally quick to assert that support for Scottish independence does = racism/sectarianism.
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I can see how you find it confusing given nobody here fits what you describe.
 
montesquieu said:
Fantasy. There's nothing at all settled about Scotland. The SNP don't have serious answers to such basic questions as what would its currency be? Would it have a central bank or not? (The EU would certainly require one, which means Sterlingisation could only be very temporary). Would it have a plan for reducing its huge Barnett-funded fiscal deficit of +20% to the EU's requirement for entry of 3%? (Which would require the most swingeing austerity programme ever in a developed econonomy). A brand new country with a massive deficit would also be a huge risk in terms of default, so interest rates on Scottish government debt would be penal.

What would it plan to do about having an EU land border with the trading partner that is currently 60% of its exports? The Good Friday Agreement requires co-operation on an Irish land border, no such agreement exists for Scotland and neither would free movement of people automatically continue. Can it seriously expect to join NATO while closing a key NATO facility such as Faslane/Coulport? (Irish freeloading on NATO is coming to an end as both Coveney and Veradkar have acknowledged). How would it cope with the brain drain as well as capital flight? It may get a level of inward investment back once the Scottish Groat had devalued sufficiently to reduce labour costs but internally to Scotland that might look like a period of 20 or 30% inflation with a massive reduction in the value of wages and pensions relative to rUK. Goodbye to all the SNP Barnett-funded freebies too.

If the SNP were honest they would say - none of this matters. A mere 20 years of pain and we can have Denmark, or Sweden. But neither have Scotland's fiscal deficit, nor its increasingly ill-educated population. (The first rule of SNP membership is: don't talk about Scotland's plummeting PISA ranking). It could take way longer than 20 years, if it ever happens. I would respect the party a lot more if it wasn't in cloud cuckoo land with its economics. As it is, they are nothing but a bunch of snivelling liars, exactly what they accuse Boris of, maybe worse.

Oh and as for a benign EU, yes there may be countries like France who would want to stick it to the English and admit Scotland asap but there are also others - notably Spain and Italy - with fissiparous regions who would not want to give any succour to their own seccessionists.
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So what? No one is saying Independence will be easy or be devoid of some economic and social pain. There are plenty of countries in Europe that have moved from command economies and authoritarian political systems (i.e. not as settled as Scotland) to functioning counties today. Or are you seriously suggesting Scotland will become the next Venezuela?
 
Kirk said:
So what? No one is saying Independence will be easy or be devoid of some economic and social pain.
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ISTR that during the lead up to Brexit, most fishies thought that was a bad thing and something to avoid, and was not a price to pay for 'gammony' sovereignty and self-determination.
 
montesquieu said:
I was trying to figure out what you left out. Oh I know - any attempt at an argument. Petty, unconstructive carping is, of course, a nationalist speciality.
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Surely if conditions are as parlous as you suggest, you must be looking to move the extended family south to safety?
 
TheDecameron said:
You and currently at least 10 others. It would be higher but for the mute button.
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You seem quite agitated today, Hugh. That’s 3 posts with content taking aim at me personally with nothing on topic, which is ad-hom. It’ll be appreciated if you can post on the topic. A number of questions have been asked by more than one person. Any chance of some answers?
 
Brian said:
You seem quite agitated today, Hugh. That’s 3 posts with content taking aim at me personally with nothing on topic, which is ad-hom. It’ll be appreciated if you can post on the topic. A number of questions have been asked by more than one person. Any chance of some answers?
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Ad hom you say?
Check it out:

:rolleyes: Keep the gobshite sarcastic bit to yourself, gassor.
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Hope you're enjoying your meths and deep fried pies
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You were politely told to do one by two of your other targets on the Labour thread, so I’d politely ask you to do the same. Hope you don’t mind.
 
TheDecameron said:
Surely if conditions are as parlous as you suggest, you must be looking to move the extended family south to safety?
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This is where I must differ. I’m looking to move north around here, monitoring the property market via Rightmove and I’ve seen a lot of very nice looking places.
 
TheDecameron said:
Someone had to point out the bait and troll- the Gassor one in particular. Ad hom you say?
Check it out:
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Oh, I don’t hide from the fact gassor and I have not always seen eye to eye and have exchanged terse words some time ago. However, I didn’t badger gassor for being a Scot who dared ask questions of the nationalists about the SNP.

Anyway, do you think you can post something on topic? You’re racking up the personal posts today. The questions that have been put forward by others are interesting and surely aren’t that difficult if your party has a plan.
 
Kirk said:
You seem to be confusing absolutism and flexibility, and theory and practice. The SNP/Greens know full well that we all have to take a journey to a low-carbon/green economy, they just want to get there faster than others which does not undermine their commitment to a fossil-free world. Yes, there are plenty of other countries with sovereign wealth funds; it's a shame we squandered the opportunity to have one of our own - no austerity, no levelling up, no Brexit; a high-skilled, high-wage economy...
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First sentence, I don't think I am at all. The absolutism seems to come from the ScotNats and the Greens, not me, but sure, they'll probably get the wake up call at some point. The moola's got to come from somewhere.

Your second sentence doesn't make sense.

It certainly is a shame that we haven't got a SWF, but that's where we are. Saying that we should have had one, or that other countries have them, isn't going to change that sad reality.

Kirk said:
All organisations and governments have their plusses and minuses but that isn't what we are discussing. I'm sure you agree that the Scotland and the-ever flexible EU will be able hammer out an agreement in due course. Btw, I see you have reverted to your usual narrow and punitive view of the EU (which now is bleeding into your views on Scottish independence). Any chance of putting your "teeth" away for a few days? Might help with your sleep problems.
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I don't see where I discussed whether all organisations have their plusses and minuses, so sure, you're bang on the money, it isn't what we were discussing.

I'm sure the EU will show flexibility. It has the knack of doing so (often to the point of contortion) when and where its suits its purposes, but where it doesn't, its rigidly 'rules-based'.

I don't believe that I've reverted to anything, I don't know what you mean by 'narrow and punitive' in regard of either the EU or Scotland.

Kirk said:
Weren't you trumpeting tech for NI in the Brexit thread? I even asked you for your views. Radio silence. Do you have any workable solutions for Scotland? And if you really are that upset about borders, paperwork and pens (or is it pencils?), all you have to do is join the Rejoin campaign.
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I wasn't 'trumpeting' anything, I simply pointed out, repeatedly, that a border has always existed between NI and the RoI, that the two countries are distinct jurisdictions in regard of VAT, Duty and other taxes, and that every day hundreds of trucks pass seamlessly across it by the use of what is now vintage paperless tech, trusted trader schemes, NPR, source/destination checks etc, and that I cannot accept that such technology cannot be extended, particularly given the advances in information and tracking technology that have taken place in recent years. I have given my views on this many times, no radio silence. To adopt 21st century tech would certainly help the Scottish border issue, but then it would have to be applied to the NI and Calais (and indeed all other EU external) borders too, and the EU would lose its protectionist credibility, and the means not only of much of its manipulation of the whole brexit issue, but of a useful chunk of the means by which it ties the SM to its overriding political project. .

It's black ink, and certainly not pencils. Or quills, yet, though I wouldn't put anything past Brussels in their determination to make things awkward.

Your suggestion that I should 'join the rejoin campaign is'... just a bit cocky!

Kirk said:
I know you are a huge Farage fan. What in particular appeals? And do you rate him over your man Boris? Maybe start another thread on this one.
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OK, so you've started again. You really should try a bit harder to hold it in. It isn't pretty, and it isn't clever, and it just makes you look a bit unpleasant.
 
Ponty said:
All politicians lie. I’m warming to the Lynch fellow. I disagree with his politics but admire his determination and straightforward approach.
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Casually dismisses some of the most corrupt and enriching individuals possibly ever seen in English politics (Are there other out there?) with the lie excuse. What's wrong with his politics of looking for a reasonable wage for working people? What's wrong with him pointing out the unfair distribution of salaries in the rail network? If you don't like those politics I assume you are on the inside gravy track and do not want the apple cart upended.
 
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