tonerei
pfm Member
These are all reasons why it might just minimize the hit. With the EU maybe strategically supporting areas that genuinely need support rather than dumping money in to be siphoned by trough feeders it might just work.
Scottish Politics II
- Thread starter TheDecameron
- Start date
These are all reasons why it might just minimize the hit. With the EU maybe strategically supporting areas that genuinely need support rather than dumping money in to be siphoned by trough feeders it might just work.
tones
Tones deaf
This is nothing - last week, there was a commentary on the Protocol by - wait for it - Liz Truss! The comments on the article were, shall we say, interesting...
Indeed you have, hence my sympathies. However, Ireland had a long and hard road after the foundation of the Irish Free State, not helped by often poor leadership (Éamon de Valera was hardly a moderniser) and a vicious civil war that killed more Irishmen than did the English during the first Troubles, so good luck to Scotland, whatever is decided.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
I see Labour’s now having convulsions over what to do if they have a hung Parliament after the next GE. Looks like Tough as Boots Starmer (with his solitary Scottish MP bringing up the rear) is going in hard:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...np-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
“Keir Starmer will vow Labour will never deal with the Scottish National party and make it explicit his party would go into minority government rather than enter talks with nationalists, in a new effort to spike Conservative attacks on a “coalition of chaos”.
That position would effectively dare the SNP to vote down a Labour Queen’s speech and bear responsibility for bringing down a Labour prime minister and enabling another Tory administration”.
“I’m not talking to you, you better not bring me down”. At least it’s reassuring to know that Scottish voters still have some utility for the Labour Party!
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...np-keir-starmer-pledge?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
“Keir Starmer will vow Labour will never deal with the Scottish National party and make it explicit his party would go into minority government rather than enter talks with nationalists, in a new effort to spike Conservative attacks on a “coalition of chaos”.
That position would effectively dare the SNP to vote down a Labour Queen’s speech and bear responsibility for bringing down a Labour prime minister and enabling another Tory administration”.
“I’m not talking to you, you better not bring me down”. At least it’s reassuring to know that Scottish voters still have some utility for the Labour Party!
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Credit where it's due, Sturgeon understands tapping into the fundamental nastiness of nationalism is how to keep her place as Big Dog in Scotland despite a minority of votes.
It’s the correct position from Starmer, I hope he sticks with it.
Fascinating that Starmer is criticised for fence sitting and is now criticised for taking a position.
Can you explain what makes you think the Labour party could enter into a coalition in 2024 with a party that will demand a referendum on leaving the UK, thus bringing down the UK govt should it happen? Fundamentalist nonsense.
wulbert
pfm Member
Actually, re-reading your post, I'd agree that both involve departure from long established unions and both will have some economic pain for the departee. (Although, longer-term, I suspect the rUK would be proportionally worse off)
A lot of the differences hinge on whether you view Scotland as an actual nation, or just a northern province of the UK. If the latter, then it is probably difficult to understand the motivation for some of us seeking Scotland's independence. I see Scotland as a nation, a country with it's own borders, laws, history, courts, education system and parliament.
In this country, called Scotland, where I live, for all of my life, people mostly vote for socially-democratic, "left" leaning parties in UK General Elections (Tories have not won an election here since the 1950's). However, it does not matter how I vote, or how my fellow countrymen & women vote. It is irrelevant. We get the government that England votes for. Every time. And it mostly vote for something different to what Scots want.
Every day of my life, the government that Scotland did not vote for, makes decisions affecting my life; foreign policy, immigration, taxation, energy policy, broadcasting, monetary policy, wars....all the big, important stuff. I would like that to change, so that the government which runs Scotland, the government with the power to make the big, important decisions, is the one which represents the voting patterns of the people who live in Scotland (they might vote Tory, or Labour, or Green or Monster Raving Looney party...it would be their choice). The name of this "ideology" is democracy.
The UK union that Scotland is in (unlike the European Union) was not created out of any democratic process where citizens had a voting franchise. It was made pre-democracy, hundreds of years ago. No one voted for it. It mostly works, sort of, in a grudging, half-arsed way. However, I think we could make a better job of running our own country because we live here, know it better and care more about it and our fellow citizens.
It's tedious and pointless going over this stuff with people who don't live here and won't be voting in any referendum, so I'm off now. I probably have a deep misunderstanding of the drive for Brexit. It mystifies me. Probably because I don't live in a country where people felt that being in the EU made their lives worse, or reduced their democratic rights. That's OK. Let England have its Brexit. England voted for it.
Seeker_UK
Feelin' nearly faded as my jeans
Thank you for the considered reply, and taking the effort to explain, Wulbert.
It's a shame you're not going to continue to engage, I'd be interested in your view on whether or not an SNP / Labour coalition (ignore the pre-election posturing) or Scotland with greater devolved power ('devo max') would change your view.
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
“Devo-max” only made sense pre Brexit, with England remaining in the EU. The difficulties are further compounded by political extremism in the Ministries that Scotland has zero control over- notably the Home Office, FCO and Defence with the first being the most problematic for reasons everyone who’s been following the subject on pfm will understand. To give two examples- immigration and drug policy.
Scotland requires 300,000 net immigration of young economically active people and should be able to manage and set criteria for that itself. The EU provided that without the hassle of quotas/ points systems- demand could be met instantly and dynamically.
Instead we’ve had a net outflow of EU talent hitting our NHS and other sectors at the worst possible time.
Patel has seen fit to interfere in drug policy where Scotland has a pressing need. She unilaterally without consultation, shut down safe injecting facilities for iv drug users while her government sought at the same time to use drug deaths as a stick to beat Scottish Govt with.
Scotland requires 300,000 net immigration of young economically active people and should be able to manage and set criteria for that itself. The EU provided that without the hassle of quotas/ points systems- demand could be met instantly and dynamically.
Instead we’ve had a net outflow of EU talent hitting our NHS and other sectors at the worst possible time.
Patel has seen fit to interfere in drug policy where Scotland has a pressing need. She unilaterally without consultation, shut down safe injecting facilities for iv drug users while her government sought at the same time to use drug deaths as a stick to beat Scottish Govt with.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Scotland is a country that is a part of the UK, it is not a province of the UK.
Anyone suggesting significant numbers in the UK think of Scotland as anything other than a country is talking nonsense in my experience. It’s a favoured piece of nationalist propaganda and is an example of stirring up of general dislike of the English. This is what Sturgeon and the SNP is good at, of course.
Anyone suggesting significant numbers in the UK think of Scotland as anything other than a country is talking nonsense in my experience. It’s a favoured piece of nationalist propaganda and is an example of stirring up of general dislike of the English. This is what Sturgeon and the SNP is good at, of course.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
But that’s just another example of the schizophrenic view of Scotland. It’s a country in its own right, but one where tight limits are placed on that country’s freedom; far tighter than any placed on the UK by the EU. And Scotland, despite being a country in its own right, is not allowed to leave the UK.
Richard Lines
pfm Member
I wouldn't want to deflect this thread (or trivialise the issue) but I see somebody else has also alluded to this statement but given how high we stand as a nation in the obesity stakes in Europe some abstention might not be such a bad thing........
Regards
Richard
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The Westminster posture toward the independence issue was very different back in the day when CMD was running the Tory shop and when the reaction could best be described as mild bemusement. Labour and the Conservatives were pitching in together with a Church fete atmosphere- sending their big guns up for walkabouts in Glasgow in a show of felicity. Almost a carnival atmosphere.
Independence, narrowly pipped at the post, sighs of relief and even Brenda said to be “purring down the phone” to Dave about the outcome.
This time it’s different- you can smell the overt hostility coming from both Labour and the Tories, united in outrage as each watch their own political chances go potentially tits up.
wulbert
pfm Member
If he's right, and you are right about the unrealistic and impractical and reality-denying nature of the idea of Scotland running it's own affairs, then a referendum would be the fastest way to burst Sturgeon's bubble.
You see yourself as even-handed in this debate, and yet here you have stated that: The idea of Scottish people running their own country is impractical and unrealistic. Also that Scottish people who support self-governance are "the faithful" in some kind of religion, who "deny reality, even when it stares them in the face".
And you say this without any apparent awareness of how arrogant, insulting and self-important it sounds.
Spraggons Den
pfm Member
In this country called England.......people also mostly vote for left leaning parties in the UK GE.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
Bit in bold is what I said. What is schizophrenic about it?
Your last sentence is incorrect. There was a referendum in 2014 and a majority voted to remain part of the UK. Further, I’ve posted voting figures from the 2019 GE that show the nationalists do not have a majority support despite their single issue obsession.
In what way are supposed limits placed by the EU on the UK to do with supposed limits placed on Scotland by being part of the UK? Out of interest though, how have you measured the tightness or otherwise of these limits?
Great post! I couldn't have said it better myself
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The other notion too that Scotland is somehow responsible for voting mistakes in England (with ten times as many voters) is bonkers. Labour and the Tories are exploiting Scottish independence, just as they’re doing with the numbers of brown people making it across the channel, for party advantage. Boris & Keir fighting over the shoe like the two ugly sisters.
Spraggons Den
pfm Member
This is a good post from Joe (as befits a HMHB fan) and much better than the usual tosh from Lord Cut n Paste but I would point out that Scotland does have a devolved Parliament ( thanks to the last Labour government) with substantial powers.
.
Brian
Eating fat, staying slim
What utter nonsense. Late PM trolling again.
I’m not sure what he has imagined to be schizophrenic, and Scotland could have left the UK if the nationalists had gained a majority as recently as 2014 and may have another stab at it in 2023, but yeah, a good post from Joe.
The Sturgeon is frightened of Labour winning a UK GE in 2024 and the nationalists are becoming more desperate, see the quote above yours for an example. The Sturgeon believes The Johnson and the tories have become their best chance. A Labour win in 2024 and the chance is likely gone unless they are smart thinkers, for example, agree to support Labour through a full term with no demand for a referendum until after the end of that term in office. That could work for Labour and for all countries of the UK.
There isn't much equivalence between the unions either.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
The key point is this; what distinguishes ‘a country in its own right’ from some other territorial entity? I’d say that, amongst other things, a country in its own right would have the power to raise all of its own taxes, and not be subject to taxes imposed by a neighbouring country; it would have the power to make all of its own laws and, as importantly, not be subject to laws made by a neighbouring country. If it does not have those powers, it is not a country in its own right, but something less than that.
In a specific case relating to Scotland, its citizens voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU. Had Scotland indeed been a country in its own right, it could not have been forced to leave the EU.
The schizophrenia, or double-think, lies in the assertion that Scotland is a country in its own right, whilst ignoring the many ways in which it is no such thing.