Scottish Politics II

[TheDecameron]

Nor did Hadrian.

His successor Antonius Pius quite liked Glasgow so shifted the principal wall to its north. I used to live next to one of the original latrines along it. His governor in Scotlandshire was Lollius Urbicus, possibly known as Lols for short.

 

[I.D.C.]

Sectarianism is an issue you’ve raised more than once here. What’s your understanding of the religious sectarian position on independence and voting SNP?

Excuse my typing and shite English . Religious bigotry is a problem in Scotland by the few. I'm hoping ( if ) independence comes that all offence marches are banned. A dream would be to ship Rangers & Celtic out of Scotland reality is no one would take such scum. Both are a embarrassment to Scotland. For instance the Isle of Arran has now more English than Scots that's fine most support independence as do many English in Scotland and there is a lot. . Its not about hating England it's about a different political direction. Can you guys get that seriously ?

 

[wulbert]

Excuse my typing and shite English . Religious bigotry is a problem in Scotland by the few. I'm hoping ( if ) independence comes that all offence marches are banned. A dream would be to ship Rangers & Celtic out of Scotland reality is no one would take such scum. Both are a embarrassment to Scotland. For instance the Isle of Arran has now more English than Scots that's fine most support independence as do many English in Scotland and there is a lot. . Its not about hating England it's about a different political direction. Can you guys get that seriously ?

Yeah, the [EDIT] [accusations of "Anti-English" at the SNP government] thing is weird. I've never seen anyone provide a link to an anti-English statement made by Sturgeon or SNP politician. Why must a desire for autonomy be a hatred of someone else? I don't get it. Is it a form of vanity? "This must be about me/us.." ? ( sings: "I bet you think this song is about you.....you're so vain") The people I love most dearly in the world are English.

 

[Ponty]

Yeah, the "Anti-English" thing is weird. I've never seen anyone provide a link to an anti-English statement made by Sturgeon or SNP politician. Why must a desire for autonomy be a hatred of someone else? I don't get it. Is it a form of vanity? "This must be about me/us.." ? ( sings: "I bet you think this song is about you.....you're so vain") The people I love most dearly in the world are English.

It’s summed up by the rugby. In an England v Russia World Cup final (if such a thing were possible), Scotland would be supporting Russia. As would the Welsh.

 

[I.D.C.]

Yeah, the "Anti-English" thing is weird. I've never seen anyone provide a link to an anti-English statement made by Sturgeon or SNP politician. Why must a desire for autonomy be a hatred of someone else? I don't get it. Is it a form of vanity? "This must be about me/us.." ? ( sings: "I bet you think this song is about you.....you're so vain") The people I love most dearly in the world are English.

That's fine and I get that you a patriot as I am but I respect you for that. We are very close and always will be. Its about political differences. Example England is attacked we feel your pain we want to do something about it most Scottish people do . What you need to understand is the political side the shite of Westminster not the people of England. We support you . Unless your looking at football that's different like Man U v Liverpool . . Rangers v Celtic I hope that's how we are looking at this situation.

 

[I.D.C.]

Yeah, the "Anti-English" thing is weird. I've never seen anyone provide a link to an anti-English statement made by Sturgeon or SNP politician. Why must a desire for autonomy be a hatred of someone else? I don't get it. Is it a form of vanity? "This must be about me/us.." ? ( sings: "I bet you think this song is about you.....you're so vain") The people I love most dearly in the world are English.

I don't know where you are getting anti English .maybe I have picked you up wrong ? There is plenty English people moved up here and welcome who also support independence. It's about a different political system. Feel free to keep throwing the toys out the pram.

 

[ff1d1l]

It’s summed up by the rugby. In an England v Russia World Cup final (if such a thing were possible), Scotland would be supporting Russia. As would the Welsh.

I don't think so. Too many Ukrainian flags flying round here. Now, england v Ukraine, that would be a different matter...

 

[I.D.C.]

Every week its another scandal seriously how can anyone protect Johnson ?

 

[Spraggons Den]

Every week its another scandal seriously how can anyone protect Johnson ?

I don’t think anyone on here is - this thread is about Scottish politics and more recently about Sturgeons desire for another referendum based on the fact that the terms of the current Union have changed due to Brexit.

I think it is no accident that she wants to get Scexit done before the next GE as a change of government at Westminster to one with policies more closely aligned to those of the SNP would rather take the wind out of Nicolas sails.

 

[Brian]

Yeah, the "Anti-English" thing is weird. I've never seen anyone provide a link to an anti-English statement made by Sturgeon or SNP politician. Why must a desire for autonomy be a hatred of someone else? I don't get it. Is it a form of vanity? "This must be about me/us.." ? ( sings: "I bet you think this song is about you.....you're so vain") The people I love most dearly in the world are English.

Well, it doesn’t have to be, but then a number of SNP supporters here have assured the membership since 2016 that the desire of those who voted to leave the EU was based entirely on hatred of someone else. Those often mentioned ‘northern racists’ in England, and all that.

Are there any answers from the nationalists to any of the legitimate questions recently posted? Not knowing what you’re voting for but voting for it anyway without understanding the effect of it, without understanding the issues and a plan for dealing with them doesn’t send a good message. It seems to me that’s all people are asking here. A discussion of the practicalities, exactly like asking similar questions of those who voted to leave the EU before and after that referendum. Is it really so difficult?

Anyway, if Scotland has a referendum and a supermajority votes for independence then that’s fair enough, but don’t forget that at the last GE, out of 4,053,140 registered voters, only 1,242,380 voted SNP, 2,810,760 people did not. That is not a mandate for even demanding another referendum let alone a mandate for independence.

 

[TheDecameron]

Is this the start of 'Gassor v2', I wonder...

You tell us:

Keep the gobshite sarcastic bit to yourself, gassor.

Hope you're enjoying your meths and deep fried pies

Looks like you're bursting for an argument again, mate.

I would like to think you're having a larf now but it's doubtful in your case, tbh. I'm referring here to how you repeatedly labelled me a racist when I referred to Andy Murray in jest as being Scotch. Definitely no sense of humour.

On a more serious note, you should think about your horrible religious bigotry before you criticise anyone else for anything really.

I can see through you, mate.

As the Troll says in a remarkable piece of unself awareness:

Chased off by bullying sarcastic posts

 

[wulbert]

I don't know where you are getting anti English .maybe I have picked you up wrong ? There is plenty English people moved up here and welcome who also support independence. It's about a different political system. Feel free to keep throwing the toys out the pram.

I think you have confused my meaning. I have edited my post to make it clearer. I meant that accusing the SNP gov. of being "Anti-English" is weird. I see no evidence for that. Being a supporter of Scotland running it's own affairs myself, I certainly don't feel "Anti-English".

The term "Westminster government", "UK government", "London government" are simply used here to distinguish it from the Scottish government at Hollyrood in Edinburgh. However, those terms are viewed as pejorative by some sensitive people.

When an Englishman complains about Westminster, he is simply complaining about the government. When a Scotsman does the same, he is (sometimes called) a whinging, ungrateful Jock. Yet we both live in the UK and are governed by the same House of Commons.

EDIT: I am not a "patriot" by the way. I despise that term and all it implies ( a blind allegiance to a flag, or monarch and a willingness to accept subjugation)

 

[Brian]

I think you have confused my meaning. I have edited my post to make it clearer. I meant that accusing the SNP gov. of being "Anti-English" is weird. I see no evidence for that. Being a supporter of Scotland running it's own affairs myself, I certainly don't feel "Anti-English".

The term "Westminster government", "UK government", "London government" are simply used here to distinguish it from the Scottish government at Hollyrood in Edinburgh. However, those terms are viewed as pejorative by some sensitive people.

When an Englishman complains about Westminster, he is simply complaining about the government. When a Scotsman does the same, he is (sometimes called) a whinging, ungrateful Jock. Yet we both live in the UK and are governed by the same House of Commons.

EDIT: I am not a "patriot" by the way. I despise that term and all it implies ( a blind allegiance to a flag, or monarch and a willingness to accept subjugation)

Not by many.

 

[wulbert]

@Richard Lines ,

Your comment about being swayed in the 2014 referendum by the threat that an independent Scotland would be evicted from the EU and not able to easily re-enter has been bothering me. I remember at the time, this was a Big Deal, with some Spanish heid-honcho in the EU saying we would not get back in or would need to join the back of a long queue of other less-developed nations applying for membership.

At the time I just thought this was nonsense. Not based on any political analysis but just a pragmatic view of real politik. The idea that the EU would not welcome and expedite membership from a well-resourced, energy-rich, highly developed, already EU compliant country was clearly pish. It would have been a great "advert" and PR-win for the EU to recruit us into their expanded union.

Sometimes it's wise to just ask yourself; "does this sound likely, or real? Does it match my lived experience?

Likewise the terror of a "hard border" between Scotland and England. This was when both Scotland & England were in the EU. "Better Together" told us a new border would halt trade, make our cousins "foreigners" ( "yuk!...foreigners!") and be simply impossible to manage. Even though examples existed all over Europe of neighbouring, sovereign countries with seamless, porous borders and effortless trade.

I knew this was shite. Both EU countries, eager to trade and avoid unnecessary disruption, would simply have sorted out an arrangement that worked in their mutual interests*. That's just the way things are. How people are. How we get stuff done.

You have to keep it real when listening to the fear-mongers. Same this time.

* (More tricky now to be fair, if we wished to re-join the EU, because people like "Montesque" upthread, have shat in their own bed. Maybe we would just divert some trade around England initially, the way Eire has done, if England still wished to remain in Splendid Isolation. When Estonia became independent it lost 100% of it's trade (with Russia). Overnight. And it still survived. People living there now can hardly remember how they sorted it all out but they did. We would have nowhere near that level of disruption. And overcoming obstacles is fun, empowering, skill-making, growth-making, positive stuff when you have the tools. An iScotland would have the tools in abundance)

 

[Brian]

@Richard Lines ,

Your comment about being swayed in the 2014 referendum by the threat that an independent Scotland would be evicted from the EU and not able to easily re-enter has been bothering me. I remember at the time, this was a Big Deal, with some Spanish heid-honcho in the EU saying we would not get back in or would need to join the back of a long queue of other less-developed nations applying for membership.

At the time I just thought this was nonsense. Not based on any political analysis but just a pragmatic view of real politik. The idea that the EU would not welcome and expedite membership from a well-resourced, energy-rich, highly developed, already EU compliant country was clearly pish. It would have been a great "advert" and PR-win for the EU to recruit us into their expanded union.

Sometimes it's wise to just ask yourself; "does this sound likely, or real? Does it match my lived experience?

Likewise the terror of a "hard border" between Scotland and England. This was when both Scotland & England were in the EU. "Better Together" told us a new border would halt trade, make our cousins "foreigners" ( "yuk!...foreigners!") and be simply impossible to manage. Even though examples existed all over Europe of neighbouring, sovereign countries with seamless, porous borders and effortless trade.

I knew this was shite. Both EU countries, eager to trade and avoid unnecessary disruption, would simply have sorted out an arrangement that worked in their mutual interests*. That's just the way things are. How people are. How we get stuff done.

You have to keep it real when listening to the fear-mongers. Same this time.

* (More tricky now to be fair, if we wished to re-join the EU, because people like "Montesque" upthread, have shat in their own bed. Maybe we would just divert some trade around England initially, the way Eire has done, if England still wished to remain in Splendid Isolation. When Estonia became independent it lost 100% of it's trade (with Russia). Overnight. And it still survived. People living there now can hardly remember how they sorted it all out but they did. We would have nowhere near that level of disruption. And overcoming obstacles is fun, empowering, skill-making, growth-making, positive stuff when you have the tools. An iScotland would have the tools in abundance)

All sorted on blind faith, then. Your motivation to leave the English is clearly all consuming. Let’s hope any referendum is after 2024.

 

[montesquieu]

All sorted on blind faith, then. Your motivation to leave the English is clearly all consuming. Let’s hope any referendum is after 2024.

There's no chance of that. Sturgeon's little stunt is not serious, it's all about party management.

Same denial going on about Scottish nationalists not being anti English. Total rot. Maybe in a few chi-chi bits of the west end of Glasgow or out in tourist-ville where the population is mixed, but five minutes in any pub in Lanarkshire will rapidly disabuse you of that notion. So much so that Stuart Hosie had to recently tell SNP members to wind their neck in. He didn't condem anti-English sentiment as such, but said the expression of this could 'weaken the campaign'. Which is, after all, the only thing that matters to these zealots.

The 'civic nationalist' schtick is another thing that causes me amusement. The SNP started off as a blood and soil nationalist party in the 1920s, and hasn't changed a bit. Show me a 'civic nationalist' and I'll show you a nationalist.

I'm afraid the claim that 'our nationalism is good, not like all those ugly foreign nationalisms - oh look a skinhead in an England shirt' doesn't bear more than cursory scrutiny.

 

[Joe Hutch]

It’s confusing/interesting/amusing that those on here most vocal in their condemnation of Scottish independence (because nationalism = bad) were in favour of Brexit (because nationalism = good).

They are also quick to deny that support for Brexit = racism but equally quick to assert that support for Scottish independence does = racism/sectarianism.

 

[TheDecameron]

There's no chance of that. Sturgeon's little stunt is not serious, it's all about party management.

Same denial going on about Scottish nationalists not being anti English. Total rot. Maybe in a few chi-chi bits of the west end of Glasgow or out in tourist-ville where the population is mixed, but five minutes in any pub in Lanarkshire will rapidly disabuse you of that notion. So much so that Stuart Hosie had to recently tell SNP members to wind their neck in. He didn't condem anti-English sentiment as such, but said the expression of this could 'weaken the campaign'. Which is, after all, the only thing that matters to these zealots.

The 'civic nationalist' schtick is another thing that causes me amusement. The SNP started off as a blood and soil nationalist party in the 1920s, and hasn't changed a bit. Show me a 'civic nationalist' and I'll show you a nationalist.

I'm afraid the claim that 'our nationalism is good, not like all those ugly foreign nationalisms - oh look a skinhead in an England shirt' doesn't bear more than cursory scrutiny.

You left out gran’s pension this time.

 

[montesquieu]

It’s confusing/interesting/amusing that those on here most vocal in their condemnation of Scottish independence (because nationalism = bad) were in favour of Brexit (because nationalism = good).

They are also quick to deny that support for Brexit = racism but equally quick to assert that support for Scottish independence does = racism/sectarianism.

I wouldn't deny there are some parallels at a glib, superficial level but once you get into detail, the notion that Scottish secession and brexit are somehow similar breaks down very fast.

There's only been a European Union since the Maastrich treaty in 1992, prior to that it was little more than a trade bloc. The Union of the Crowns was nearly 400 years before that and the Act of Union 300. Since then Great Britain (and for a time, Great Britan and Ireland - though in practice politically and economically it was largely Scotland and England in partnership - have enjoyed a pretty seamless social, political and economic union, and together kicked off the industrial revolution, built (and lost) and empire, and created the world's fifth largest economy (for all its flaws). There is hardly a family in Scotland without English relatives - family roots and the common experience of the world wars mean connections at a personal level run very deep. There were few tensions in the union until de-industrialisation in the Thatcher period, and Scotland's experience in that era I would admit leaves a big scar. (Don't try and tell the de-industrialised parts of England or Wales that its experience was unique, though). In any case I don't believe secccession fixes a single one of Scotland's problems and in fact has been a massive distraction, given seccession is the central aim of the SNP and actual governance not of any great importance to them - the SNP don't care how bad it gets as they can always point the finger.

The EU was and remains a great idea, sadly let down by its execution. It currently functions primarily as a Franco-German vehicle driven by German economic policy and French foreign policy - Germany of course has been the biggest beneficiary of the Euro which trades at maybe 20% lower than the DMark would do on its own, a huge boost to its export industries. Personally I think that Brexit became inevitable from the moment in the late 1990s that Gordon Brown kept us out of the Euro. I would have been happy to remain in a proper two-speed EU that accepted a growing degree of divergence between Eurozone and non-Eurozone, so long as the Single Market was extended to Services, which dominate the UK economy in the way manfacturing does Germany's and which was resisted by Germany, France, Italy and Spain for precisely that reason - we are too good at it for them to compete. (QV the EU's complete failure to develop its own Euro clearing system). Cameron however completely failed (perhaps unsurprisingly) to achieve any of this and by 2016 there was only one logical course of action, given the degree of divergence that was inevitable as the Eurozone continues to integrate under the banner of 'ever closer union', and the tensions that ineviably arise from that. I still think it was the right thing to do. But leaving a 40 year trade pact is an entirely different thing from unwinding a 300 year old nation-state that reaches every part of people's lives.

 

[montesquieu]

You left out gran’s pension this time.

I was trying to figure out what you left out. Oh I know - any attempt at an argument. Petty, unconstructive carping is, of course, a nationalist speciality.