Pre/power vs Integrated

[Columbo]

Following on from Mike's amp thread...

Is there anything to be gained from moving from an integrated to separate pre/power, or all much of a muchness, or "it depends"?

I'm assuming the latter but have limited experience.

(Also mildly annoying paying for onboard DAC/streamer like with the Hegel stuff, which I'll never use yet gets added to the cost)

 

[oldius]

I have had both and I am happy now with integrated amplifiers. I don't think one is necessarily better than another, just choose an amp that matches your speakers and speakers that work in your room.

 

[Phyztech]

Hmm.. it’s not that easy. It depends for sure, there’re no guarantees you’ll like a particular pre/power combo. However it’s no doubt that in the line of virtually any manufacturer separate pre is a higher class offer. It may be the most important component of the system.

 

[Ben&Ted]

A lot is down to the number of power supplies and regulation and also keeping low level and hign level cicuits from affecting each other.

Pre/Power can look like the best way to go in this respect. Although:

The seriously big integrated; they can be as though a pre power has been packaged into one box and have multiple psu/regulation and enough space inside to keep circuits suiatably apart.

Also down to the skill of the designer and how much you are willing to pay.

Exposure are a good example of a designer on top of his game and producing an Integrated 'the 3510' that is so well designed that it will give many a pre /power a very good run (apart from even their own, who would have thought!)

 

[Phyztech]

The seriously big integrated; they can be as though a pre power has been packaged into one box and have multiple psu/regulation and enough space inside to keep circuits suiatably apart.

It’s true however let’s look at the Pilium which are kind of a top Munich show hype currently. Their Leonidas is a serious integrated designed as you described (got even 2 power cords). And still it’s a junior proposition and higher lines are pre/power.

 

[Darren L]

Two sided for me personally, I'd genuinely prefer a one box integrated amp for simplicity but seperation of the preamplifier and power amplifier(s) has more flexibility meaning I can use my preference of a valve preamp combined with solid state poweramp(s).
If there was more high quality hybrid valve pre/SS power integrated amps I'd be inclined to choose from them.
Having said that I nearly always opt for a separate phonostage.

 

[Phyztech]

Or Audio Note Meishu for example. Quite bulky 30kg+ box, still there’s no enough space to fit M3-level pre and that will give better sq with similar 300b-power.

A compromise which many follow in a good integrated amps is usually a passive pre + power section - NVA, Rega Osiris, Nait 50 etc.

 

[hifinutt]

the good thing about pre power is you can tweak both and upgrade each one

the good thing about integrated is less cables , less boxes and can sound just as good as the pre power

 

[Mr Pig]

It's mostly about perception. More boxes looks better but brand matters too.

So say you live in a council house, with non- functional luxury car in the front garden, a Technics midi will probably do the job. If you own golf clubs or a working Audi you might want to look at some UK brand speakers to go with it.

If you own a small business, B&O is a safe bet and if you own the people who own businesses then go for a high end brand like Linn, Naim or Macintosh. Naim are good as they offer phenomenal box count potential but avoid their cheaper Chinese one-box offerings as is it just makes you look like a wannabe.

It's important to put the system in a prominent, highly visible spot, ideal where it can be seen through the window by passers by. A TV so big you could watch it from space helps but only if you're not in the Bentley brigade. If you are then no TV at all is the classier option.

Hope this helps?

 

[SteveG]

In my main system I went from an active system with a pre-amp, 2 x power amps, a active crossover and 2 power suppliers to a single integrated amp. In that case the integrated sounds better (although on a cost basis it probably could be seen as an upgrade compared to the active system) but it's also useful having fewer boxes and a lot less wiring.

 

[Mike Hanson]

It would be wonderful is there was a single box that did it all perfectly (to suit your expectations), but that's a very hard thing to find. Given its price and specs, the big Hegel H600 should have knocked it out of the park, but ultimately didn't satisfy. And even its preamp section wasn't to our taste. Since I've left, my friend compared its DAC/pre section, and again didn't like it as much as the Wandla

As you noted in my post, having separates gave us much more flexibility with mixing and matching, to dial in the desired presentation.

The longer I spend in this hobby, the more I realize that there is no "correct" sound, and that every component adds something to the mix (or takes it away). Consequently, if you're picky, it's best to have more ingredients so you can "salt to taste".

 

[i.j.russell]

In the past, when signal voltages were lower, you needed something to boost the signal before being sent to the power amplifier, so a separate preamplifier made sense. Nowadays, I don't think it matters. Going the pre-power route allows you to tailor the sound to your taste but at a cost.

 

[SteveG]

It would be wonderful is there was a single box that did it all perfectly (to suit your expectations), but that's a very hard thing to find.

I've ended up with a Krell integrated and since I've had that I've not had any inclination to upgrade it. There are no doubt many better amps out there but the Krell is certainly good enough for me. It's got enough grunt that it's not that bothered what speakers are used with it (and I've tried many) but it's currently paired with Wilson Benesch standmounters and that combination is working very nicely (and they appear to like a bit of power).

 

[ryder]

Is there anything to be gained from moving from an integrated to separate pre/power, or all much of a muchness, or "it depends"?

You may consider a £5k-8k used integrated which is in a higher league than similarly priced separates.

 

[Mike Hanson]

You may consider a £5k-8k used integrated which is in a higher league than similarly priced separates.

Price doesn't necessarily mean it will match one's tastes and requirements. Again, I cite the example of the Hegel H600, which retails for £10,500.00. It wasn't as good (to me and my friend) as separates costing significantly less.

 

[hifinutt]

agreed , had some wonderful integrated amps here some over 10k rrp but not all suited . one of the most enjoyable `cheaper` ones was the norma 70b integrated

 

[ryder]

Price doesn't necessarily mean it will match one's tastes and requirements. Again, I cite the example of the Hegel H600, which retails for £10,500.00. It wasn't as good (to me and my friend) as separates costing significantly less.

Yes, need to find the right one. Nevertheless, in my experience I found good integrateds start from £5k used.

 

[Tony L]

A huge limiting factor for me of a lot of options is inputs/routing etc. My main system is vinyl, CD/streaming, open-reel tape, cassette and a little mixing desk. My preamp facilitates all this, including off-tape monitoring, plus provides balance adjustment, and I even have one input and a power-amp output free (it has two). An audiophile valve preamp (it is a JC Verdier Control B) having this level of flexibility is very rare. It is actually even more versatile as the power amp output can be set at different levels which helps matching with other components. Whenever I think about exploring other option I usually slam into a wall pretty fast as so little even meets my core functionality needs. Maybe some ‘80s Audio Research preamps, plus ‘70s-80s Japanese high-end such as Accuphase etc. Very little else comes to mind. So little modern kit has a proper tape-loop, a lot misses a phono stage, and most lacks a balance control.

 

[Isobarik]

A huge limiting factor for me of a lot of options is inputs/routing etc. My main system is vinyl, CD/streaming, open-reel tape, cassette and a little mixing desk. My preamp facilitates all this, including off-tape monitoring, plus provides balance adjustment, and I even have one input and a power-amp output free (it has two). An audiophile valve preamp (it is a JC Verdier Control B) having this level of flexibility is very rare. It is actually even more versatile as the power amp output can be set at different levels which helps matching with other components. Whenever I think about exploring other option I usually slam into a wall pretty fast as so little even meets my core functionality needs. Maybe some ‘80s Audio Research preamps, plus ‘70s-80s Japanese high-end such as Accuphase etc. Very little else comes to mind. So little modern kit has a proper tape-loop, a lot misses a phono stage, and most lacks a balance control.

' So little modern kit has a proper tape-loop, a lot misses a phono stage, and most lacks a balance control'.
Lucky for me, my amp has 3 tape loops!

 

[Phyztech]

Price doesn't necessarily mean it will match one's tastes and requirements. Again, I cite the example of the Hegel H600, which retails for £10,500.00. It wasn't as good (to me and my friend) as separates costing significantly less.

However on the other side of price spectrum there’re some all-in-one integrateds which are difficult to beat for the price with separates. Like Marantz 40n under 2k or Technics 600 under 1k.