Pre/power vs Integrated

[Columbo]

A lot is down to the number of power supplies and regulation and also keeping low level and hign level cicuits from affecting each other.

Pre/Power can look like the best way to go in this respect. Although:

The seriously big integrated; they can be as though a pre power has been packaged into one box and have multiple psu/regulation and enough space inside to keep circuits suiatably apart.

Also down to the skill of the designer and how much you are willing to pay.

Exposure are a good example of a designer on top of his game and producing an Integrated 'the 3510' that is so well designed that it will give many a pre /power a very good run (apart from even their own, who would have thought!)

Good point. It does seem a lot of chunkier integrates pack a lot into one box (my preference is for less clutter unless there's a signifcant sq gain to be had)

It's mostly about perception. More boxes looks better but brand matters too.

So say you live in a council house, with non- functional luxury car in the front garden, a Technics midi will probably do the job. If you own golf clubs or a working Audi you might want to look at some UK brand speakers to go with it.

If you own a small business, B&O is a safe bet and if you own the people who own businesses then go for a high end brand like Linn, Naim or Macintosh. Naim are good as they offer phenomenal box count potential but avoid their cheaper Chinese one-box offerings as is it just makes you look like a wannabe.

It's important to put the system in a prominent, highly visible spot, ideal where it can be seen through the window by passers by. A TV so big you could watch it from space helps but only if you're not in the Bentley brigade. If you are then no TV at all is the classier option.

Hope this helps?

Ha. I like my gear to be heard and not seen, tucked away in a unit in a state of slightly overheating (note to self: drill some more vents into the unit)

A huge limiting factor for me of a lot of options is inputs/routing etc. My main system is vinyl, CD/streaming, open-reel tape, cassette and a little mixing desk. My preamp facilitates all this, including off-tape monitoring, plus provides balance adjustment, and I even have one input and a power-amp output free (it has two). An audiophile valve preamp (it is a JC Verdier Control B) having this level of flexibility is very rare. It is actually even more versatile as the power amp output can be set at different levels which helps matching with other components. Whenever I think about exploring other option I usually slam into a wall pretty fast as so little even meets my core functionality needs. Maybe some ‘80s Audio Research preamps, plus ‘70s-80s Japanese high-end such as Accuphase etc. Very little else comes to mind. So little modern kit has a proper tape-loop, a lot misses a phono stage, and most lacks a balance control.

I'm streamer and done. That's a whole bunch of cabling you must have going on!

Thanks all. Guess it's a game of try it and see. I do like the idea of being able to tweak more, but also like the low faff, less clutter. Hmmn.

 

[Jazzer]

I don’t live in the rarified multi thousand pound amplifier arena but if I did i would try to find a high quality integrated solution.
The Naim model of multiple boxes and PSU add ons seems ridiculous to me.
I have been an electronics engineer for over 40 years and the thought of having to plug in additional PSU and pre amp boxes is absurd.
That is just not the best way to do it, in my view.
Just design the bloody thing properly in the first place and sell it as is.…
No need for interconnect and cable worries, either.
It’s all just a means to make more money for the vendor.
Sorry, rant over but integrated rules for me.

You can also argue the toss about solid state v valve too.
Personally I haven’t heard anything to convince me that valves are superior when driving the kind of speakers that i could actaully live with. (Caveat here).
ie 80 to 90 db efficiency.
If I had a much larger room and money was no object, then maybe a valve/horn set up would do but I simply am not in that league.
Either cost wise or getting it past the wife. lol
Each to their own i suppose.

 

[adamdea]

Hmmm. I don't really think pre-amps are necessary. These days better to get a dac/pre (ie a dac with a volume control, ideally with an analogue input too). Power amps are ok to be separate although better in speakers. Then add sources to choice.

 

[Tony L]

That's a whole bunch of cabling you must have going on!

It’s not quite as crazy as it sounds. Mains is mainly routed under the table. The Akai reel to reel is under the table the little Teac mixer is on (very hard to get at there, but it isn’t used much). Having everything wide and low makes far more sense than a typical tall vertical rack. Sounds better too (ducks, covers).

 

[matt j]

The only time I thought pre/power made a substantial difference was using a Townshend Allegri with whatever power amp. It's use case dependant IMO, I only ever need a few watts even if I don't use sensitive speakers, my goal has never been to rattle windows or recreate live music so an integrated is good enough.

 

[beammeup]

However on the other side of price spectrum there’re some all-in-one integrateds which are difficult to beat for the price with separates. Like Marantz 40n under 2k or Technics 600 under 1k.

How are you getting on with your Marantz 40n - I think you sold your Croft in preference for the 40n so it must be very good indeed to beat the Croft in your system

 

[Salamander]

I'd say stick with an integrated unless you want to try a valve pre with SS power.

 

[Phyztech]

How are you getting on with your Marantz 40n - I think you sold your Croft in preference for the 40n so it must be very good indeed to beat the Croft in your system

It’s not exactly like this, I had 40n before Croft (but actually I had another Croft prior to 40n in the system ). 40n is still here, I believe it’s good all-in-one, although I will sell it at some point). Overall, if to compare Croft and Marantz as pure amps they are just different, it’s Naim Nait 50 which replaced Croft for me.

 

[Philip Read]

I played with various pre/power stuff but I've finally settled... currently on a Rotel Michi X5 which is at least as good as the previous stuff if not better

 

[music fiend]

Hmmm. I don't really think pre-amps are necessary. These days better to get a dac/pre (ie a dac with a volume control, ideally with an analogue input too). Power amps are ok to be separate although better in speakers. Then add sources to choice.

Not necessary, perhaps, but they can improve the sound quite a lot IME.
I used to have a Mytek Brooklyn DAC in my stereo setup and decided to test how it would sound excluding the pre-amp section in my integrated (there is an HTH input that bypasses the pre-amp).

Apparently the Mytek has two good pre-amp options (analogue and digital) but the end result was quite disappointing sound wise. Smaller sound stage, less realism and atmosphere.

 

[Mike Hanson]

Not necessary, perhaps, but they can improve the sound quite a lot IME.
I used to have a Mytek Brooklyn DAC in my stereo setup and decided to test how it would sound excluding the pre-amp section in my integrated (there is an HTH input that bypasses the pre-amp).

Apparently the Mytek has two good pre-amp options (analogue and digital) but the end result was quite disappointing sound wise. Smaller sound stage, less realism and atmosphere.

I've got the Ferrum Wandla, which I think was designed by the same team. I've found that with some power amps it sounds really good direct, but with others it's flat and lifeless. At the very least it's probably an impedance matching issue, but there are probably other things going on as well.

With my friend's system, adding a Benchmark HPA4 preamp between the his Wandla and Orchard Starkrimson power amp presented a significant soundstage that was MIA when the Wandla was plugged directly into the amp.

So there is no hard and fast rule. You really have to suck it and see.

 

[Phyztech]

Remember that SPL Phonitor 2 was a better pre-amp for me vs any dac with volume control I tried back then

 

[x21]

Price doesn't necessarily mean it will match one's tastes and requirements. Again, I cite the example of the Hegel H600, which retails for £10,500.00. It wasn't as good (to me and my friend) as separates costing significantly less.

I still find myself going back to my NAD C 316BEE over some of my other amps. I even got some wows from some dealers sure their more expensive amps would walk all over it.

 

[Mike Hanson]

I still find myself going back to my NAD C 316BEE over some of my other amps. I even got some wows from some dealers sure their more expensive amps would walk all over it.

I recently visited someone who was running mono NAD power amps in bridged mode, into Dunlavy Cantata speakers. These have a 4-ohm impedance, so he realized he was tempting fate. He still felt it sounded really good--far better than many supposedly better amps--but he knew he had to find another amp.

I visited him so he could hear the Neurochrome Modulus-686, and I brought along the Avondale SE200 dual mono and NCC300 monos. (He was running a Prima Luna tube preamp.)

• We started with the SE200, and I was surprised that it couldn't manage the load. It sounded rather disorganized and "pushed". I had never heard that from the SE200 before.
• The NCC300 sounded great, controlling the speakers very nicely, with a tantalizing sense of engagement.
• The Neurochrome had no difficulty powering the speakers, but was short on PRaT and engagement. Details were better though, and distortion was very low.

We went back to the NCC300, and he decided to buy them from me. Lesson learned: You can't predict how an amp will sound until you hook it up to the speaker.

 

[Woodface]

I think keeping the power amp away from the pre has some merit but it’s all about execution.

My combined CD/Pre/Dac works really well into active speakers. I certainly don’t miss the extra naim boxes or the buzzing power supplies which really started to bug me after a while.

 

[chartz]

Pre + amp and integrated can be as satisfying.
I happily use both.
I almost consider 33/303 or 34/306 as integrated amps, by the way!

 

[oldius]

I go back to what I said earlier. Match the amp to the speakers and the speakers to your room. Every single component out there has a compromise, and if your friend is not happy after five years of searching, then the route has to be changed.

 

[Timcat]

Maybe some ‘80s Audio Research preamps, plus ‘70s-80s Japanese high-end such as Accuphase etc. Very little else comes to mind. So little modern kit has a proper tape-loop, a lot misses a phono stage, and most lacks a balance control.

Current Accuphase pre-amps will do all of it, but they are solid state. Best balance control I have ever used with precise 1dB steps either side of centre and a unique volume control that remains precisely balanced down to minimum volume levels.

 

[Alun Rains]

It's mostly about perception. More boxes looks better but brand matters too.

So say you live in a council house, with non- functional luxury car in the front garden, a Technics midi will probably do the job. If you own golf clubs or a working Audi you might want to look at some UK brand speakers to go with it.

If you own a small business, B&O is a safe bet and if you own the people who own businesses then go for a high end brand like Linn, Naim or Macintosh. Naim are good as they offer phenomenal box count potential but avoid their cheaper Chinese one-box offerings as is it just makes you look like a wannabe.

It's important to put the system in a prominent, highly visible spot, ideal where it can be seen through the window by passers by. A TV so big you could watch it from space helps but only if you're not in the Bentley brigade. If you are then no TV at all is the classier option.

Hope this helps?

Very amusing..

 

[linvc]

over the years i have used integrateds and pre power both solid state and tubes. for sure arguements can be made both ways but i have now settled on an accuphase integrated with on board phono card which sounds great and is a huge saving on cables. i had hoped to also use the dac card but have concluded they may be one step too far