Post-Trump: Biden President Elect II (Trump tantrums, riots etc)

[Ciunas Audio]

Not all Trump voters are white supremacist fascists. Some are more ordinary conservatives, Republicans, just in denial about how bad Trump is. Some are just going along with the Trump train because that's what 'their people' are doing, without any great political insight at all. Got a good bunch to run down to the Capitol and act up, but the hard core who were enlisted in the plan at some level and went in? Much smaller. How many hard core fascists among the Trump voters? A definite minority of that 74 million, I am not sure how what proportion. The smaller the better of course.

The problem with this seems to me that 'ordinary conservatives' should no longer be in the Trump camp at this stage having seen the attempted coup. Those who would still vote for Trump at this stage are now just as guilty as the violent perpetrators at the Capitol building as they provide cover for this violent hard core. There are a number of politicians that fear for their lives - it's a different fear when it's believed a goodly proportion of 74 million are threatening violence than if it is seen that a much smaller group within this 74 million are a threat. The possibility of rooting out/defeating a small violent hard core is much more possible than defeating a larger proportion of 74 million

My experience of such protests that become ugly - at the first sign of ugliness, right thinking people get out of there. I believe it was pretty obvious to anybody in that crowd that things were going to be ugly just looking at tshirts & weapons & hearing the chants.

As I saw a USC cop on TV explain about the person who came to his aid when people were tasering him & saying kill him with his gun - "thanks for your humanity but **** you for being there"

When you are going to work & you fear some of your work colleagues may be aiding these people to do you harm or possibly to do you harm themselves

We need 'Nuremberg trials,' to paint these guys as the evildoers they are. The disgrace must be utter. That will go a long way toward waking up the soft-core followers. I hope.

Agreed, a root & branch public pruning of the people involved in this is probably even more important than Trump's impeachment

 

[MVV]

I struggle with all this talk of a coup. I'm sure that there were a few deluded toy soldiers intent on stopping or disrupting the vote. But most of them were just stupid people on a day out. What I am enjoying is the look in their eyes when their ignorance and entitled white privilege bangs up against old white money and real power. They will let them play out with their silly red hats and selfies as long as it benefits them but if it starts to actually look like it might change stuff the gloves come off.

 

[-alan-]

I’d go as short as Al but that’s as far as I dare abbreviate.

Joe

Call Me Al.

I'm Al

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I wonder how Trump supporters explain their apparent union with 6MWE and Camp Auschwitz members? I hope the Republican Party will indeed be split to reveal the extremists and "National Socialists" but expect these groups to go under the radar for a while so as to conserve their route to power for future use. These extremists will be looking for a new Republican cheerleader. Candidates? Democrats have to focus on the extremes of the Republican movement and paint the entire party with this same extremist brush to force them to be more discerning in the future and open up a rift. Meanwhile I see no sign of Jewish Groups attacking the Republican Party or Trump over these extremist bedfellows. Did they make some sort of deal with Trump? How will they be feeling about his Stormtroopers now?

J

Yea, the GOP is the problem - they are like a political brother, as Tom Friedman says here
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...ne_who_could_excite_the_base.html?jwsource=cl

"[The Republican party] really became a political brothel that rented itself out by the night to anyone who could energize its base," Friedman said. "That's really what they were doing. Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, then Trump, but in the case of Trump, he took over the whole brothel."

 

[gustav_errata]

"[The Republican party] really became a political brothel that rented itself out by the night to anyone who could energize its base," Friedman said. "That's really what they were doing. Sarah Palin, the Tea Party, then Trump, but in the case of Trump, he took over the whole brothel."

Not to mention, going further back, the religious right.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Not to mention, going further back, the religious right.

Yep, the GOP just seem to be a party with pretend ideology but at their core their main guiding principle is how to game the system to gain more power - McConnell was the epitome of this until Trump came along. The party is dangerous & need to be removed.

Becoming a republican means you accept the lies at the heart of the GOP (their pretend ideologies) & it makes it easier to accept further lies. Trump has exposed just how far down that rabbit hole they will go.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I struggle with all this talk of a coup. I'm sure that there were a few deluded toy soldiers intent on stopping or disrupting the vote. But most of them were just stupid people on a day out. What I am enjoying is the look in their eyes when their ignorance and entitled white privilege bangs up against old white money and real power. They will let them play out with their silly red hats and selfies as long as it benefits them but if it starts to actually look like it might change stuff the gloves come off.

I think you are wrong - I believe it will be revealed, as more details emerge, that there was a concerted effort & plan in all this.

 

[gustav_errata]

I do believe that many of the people there were just caught up in the moment and didn't understand the gravitas of their actions. That ignorance, however, doesn't excuse them nor absolve them of their responsibility for their actions in any way. I have no pity for any of them.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Looking at Chris Hedges on Jimmy Dore - have only looked at the first 5mins but I see the argument Hedges puts forth & Dore agrees - that the underlying problem of disenfranchised people needs to be addressed rather than the current immediate issues dealt with. I agree that long term solutions are needed but there is also a need to address the more pressing issues in the moment.

To use an analogy, what they are saying is - people in a movie theatre not liking the movie, the seats, the theatre itself & Hedges & Dore want the movie & all this to be changed to prevent a riot & don't want to stop people shouting "fire" which will almost certainly cause a stampede.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I do believe that many of the people there were just caught up in the moment and didn't understand the gravitas of their actions. That ignorance, however, doesn't excuse them nor absolve them of their responsibility for their actions in any way. I have no pity for any of them.

I think the ones with a touch of morals would have gotten out of there fairly quickly - so the ones in the capitol building are guilty of more than ignorance & the ones that were still outside during this are also guilty.

 

[Joe Hutch]

I struggle with all this talk of a coup. I'm sure that there were a few deluded toy soldiers intent on stopping or disrupting the vote. But most of them were just stupid people on a day out.

“Hush. Don't ask any questions. It's always best on these occasions to do what the mob do."
"But suppose there are two mobs?" suggested Mr. Snodgrass.
"Shout with the largest," replied Mr. Pickwick.

Charles Dickens, The Pickwick Papers

 

[MVV]

I think you are wrong - I believe it will be revealed, as more details emerge, that there was a concerted effort & plan in all this.

You may be right but my experience of the world tells me there is rarely a concerted effort or plan and if there is it never survives engagement with the enemy. If there was something resembling a plan its more likely they just decided to let the orange oaf hoist himself with his own petard and it got out of hand. Puts me in mind of a lyric 'the men that really run this land' but I can't locate it.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

You may be right but my experience of the world tells me there is rarely a concerted effort or plan and if there is it never survives engagement with the enemy. If there was something resembling a plan its more likely they just decided to let the orange oaf hoist himself with his own petard and it got out of hand. Puts me in mind of a lyric 'the men that really run this land' but I can't locate it.

I'm not saying it was a competent plan - anything which involves Trump is incompetent from the start - but a confluence of groups with the same goals using Trump as the coalescing glue & the cover to achieve their goals. I mean there was no possibility that this could be a successful coup without the military being involved - I'm sure Trump was attempting to do this, however (as the unusual published statement from the military prior to the insurrection is probable evidence of)

 

[gustav_errata]

I think the ones with a touch of morals would have gotten out of there fairly quickly - so the ones in the capitol building are guilty of more than ignorance & the ones that were still outside during this are also guilty.

That comment about morals supposes that everyone there truly understood that the whole election "scandal" was a fabrication. I think plenty of people there were hoodwinked into genuinely believing that something nefarious had happened and they genuinely believed that what they were doing by being in that crowd was the morally correct thing to do. Again, though, that does not excuse or absolve them of their actions.

 

[MVV]

A coup is a very difficult thing to organise, it takes months or years of very careful alignment of key stakeholders as Machiavelli said “There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things'. Half-witted keyboard warriors in dressing up clothes are not equipped to do that. A bit like our very own Johnson and Gove they stumbled into something by accident and found themselves in way too deep..

 

[Ciunas Audio]

That comment about morals supposes that everyone there truly understood that the whole election "scandal" was a fabrication. I think plenty of people there were hoodwinked into genuinely believing that something nefarious had happened and they genuinely believed that what they were doing by being in that crowd was the morally correct thing to do. Again, though, that does not excuse or absolve them of their actions.

Yea, I know it's a scenario complicated by lies & fabrication - maybe "morals" was the wrong word to use - those fired up with "passionate intensity" leave their sense of what's right & wrong, behind.

My own personal experience of such a situation I mentioned before - the march to the British Embassy in Dublin & eventual burning down of it soon after Bloody Sunday, 1972. There were lots of people with "passionate intensity" (not based on lies, however) in that march but I got out of there before any burning started when I could see & palpably feel the ugliness about to start. Maybe I was less passionate, less informed, more cowardly, more interested in self-preservation but I & my friends got out of there quickly.

I guess we all mistakenly believe that others should act in the same way as we do?

Is this not the underlying attraction of Fascism i.e if only everyone thought & acted like me, the world would be a far better place?

 

[TheDecameron]

Yea, I know it's a scenario complicated by lies & fabrication - maybe "morals" was the wrong word to use - those fired up with "passionate intensity" leave their sense of what's right & wrong, behind.

My own personal experience of such a situation I mentioned before - the march to the British Embassy in Dublin & eventual burning down of it soon after Bloody Sunday, 1972. There were lots of people with "passionate intensity" (not based on lies, however) in that march but I got out of there before any burning started but I could see & palpably feel the ugliness about to start. Maybe I was less passionate, less informed, more cowardly, more interested in self-preservation but I & my friends got out of there quickly.

I guess we all mistakenly believe that others should act in the same way as we do?

Is this not the underlying attraction of Fascism i.e if only everyone thought & acted like me, the world would be a far better place?

This is the important bit for me- at what point does personal responsibility kick in, a basic sense of right and wrong, the point at which you are no longer able to collude with the actions of your political leader no matter how much you dislike the politics of your opponents. I sense it’s a minority, witnesses by the huge numbers who cling on to the end then when they’re walked through the rubble they created, will say “but we didn’t know he was like that, we didn’t know what was really going on”.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I would have thought people on Tinder would be too busy bumping uglies to worry about fomenting revolution.

 

[gustav_errata]

Remember, these people really believe that a lot of those people in the Capitol have a hobby that involves paedophilia and satanism. They believe that those politicians have "stolen" the governance of the country from the American people. That this theft in itself was the real coup.

Suppose for a moment that they succeeded. Suppose that Trump installed his regime, kicked out all these politicians and ruled with an iron fist. What would it take to dislodge him? One can picture a similar act, storming the capitol or the White House and doing whatever it takes to get the cretins out. Very similar to what these people did. Standing and shouting on the streets demonstrably doesn't do much when we look at, say, Russia or Poland in recent years.

So there is extreme relativism at play, almost at unmanageable levels. We see Trump for the wannabe dictator that he is, they see him as the saviour against some weird conspiracy that is destroying the country. So the perspectives are not just different, they are diametrically opposed. So while we can hope that some would say "hang on, maybe storming the Capitol is a step too far", in reality very many likely saw it as the only option and the unquestionably right thing to do. I doubt anyone found themselves, there on the Capitol steps, saying "you know, maybe this whole QAnon/"Stop the Steal"/whatever thing was a load of BS afterall."

 

[Yank]

Agreed, a root & branch public pruning of the people involved in this is probably even more important than Trump's impeachment

I agree. I also agree with comments upthread that the GOP is the problem. But what happens is that whenever there are GOP misdeeds that get caught, and a change of power to the Dems, we're always told that it's time to forgive and forget for the sake of unity.

It's not really a compromise when one side is expected to do all the compromising.