Ortofon's MC Anna and 12" arms

[Jek]

Even if there was a dealer who stocked everything, it would still be very difficult to get any kind of meaningful demo. I've never heard anything in a shop sounding what I would call "good", let alone "outstanding". The setup of these decks is critical, so any demo is moot.

I think what happens in the real world is that people pretty much make up their mind what they want in advance, then go along to a demo in order to convince themselves they've made the correct choice.

I don't bother with that. If I make a mistake, I'll sell on and move on.

Quite true so you have a point

I dont work that way however - I go in with an open mind. I had no intention to buy brinkmann when I went in the shop

I have heard good dems at Walrus, The emporium and a few others however I had to extrapolate past the fact the amp and to a greater extent the speakers were not quite to my taste but we managed to settle on something suitable that could reveal the comparative differences.

 

[Blzebub]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but why is your TT in storage? I'd go nuts without my turntable.

 

[Jek]

I have just moved house so its been in storage for 3 weeks. I had to pack it away in a box ready to move a couple of months before that as I was out of the country and then moving around for work a bit before I moved house. Now I have sorted all the unpacking I will move in my hifi and records books etc

There is no "best" turntable

 

[Blzebub]

Aha! Agreement at last!

 

[Jek]

People have different tolerances for compromises and all audio equipment is compromised. Plus they have different tastes in music. No one deck will suit all people and all tastes. However choices aren't always based on these factors and people dont always listen to all the alternatives. I have heard only a handful of decks that in my opinion do anything better than the brinkmann. Perhaps Amazon reference, simon yorke, PT anni.

 

[Time Audio]

I want a suspended deck, for philosophical reasons.

I went away from suspended decks simply because they sound so poor. Modifying the Orbe to a very stiff rubber suspension similar to what SME use got me a big improvement as did having the Amazon with rubber balls but getting rid of the suspension all-together - now that is when you get rid of turntable problems and start hearing what is actually on records!

It is a lovely thing. How many do you sell per year? I only ask because this is such a super-niche market.

I know TW produces a batch of 35 decks on roughly an 8 to 10 week schedule and all are built to order. Turnover was 1.2M Euros in 2011 I believe.

 

[Blzebub]

I went away from suspended decks simply because they sound so poor. Modifying the Orbe to a very stiff rubber suspension similar to what SME use got me a big improvement as did having the Amazon with rubber balls but getting rid of the suspension all-together - now that is when you get rid of turntable problems and start hearing what is actually on records!

I think you are making the mistake of conflating all suspension systems as being equal.

 

[Blzebub]

People have different tolerances for compromises and all audio equipment is compromised. Plus they have different tastes in music. No one deck will suit all people and all tastes. However choices aren't always based on these factors and people dont always listen to all the alternatives. I have heard only a handful of decks that in my opinion do anything better than the brinkmann. Perhaps Amazon reference, simon yorke, PT anni.

Surprised to see Simon Yorke in there.

 

[Time Audio]

I think you are making the mistake of conflating all suspension systems as being equal.

Well suspension upgrades improved the sound no-end - however getting rid of the suspension all together got rid of the instability problems suspended decks suffer from...paradigm shift. I sold my Orbe because the suspension drove me crazy. Then I bought it back - modified it to Gert Pedersen spec and transformed it to something like SME stability - way better. But not having any at all - now that has been a total revelation. Having this slab of Delrin based material to absorb the arm energy and provide the right kind of damping....wow!

Suspended decks fight the motor and act like an earthquake to the stylus....found that out big time! Wrong theory that decks need a suspension based on old radiograms where the deck was in with the speakers me thinks.

 

[Blzebub]

Well suspension upgrades improved the sound no-end - however getting rid of the suspension all together got rid of the instability problems suspended decks suffer from...paradigm shift. I sold my Orbe because the suspension drove me crazy. Then I bought it back - modified it to Gert Pedersen spec and transformed it to something like SME stability - way better. But not having any at all - now that has been a total revelation. Having this slab of Delrin based material to absorb the arm energy and provide the right kind of damping....wow!

Suspended decks fight the motor and act like an earthquake to the stylus....found that out big time! Wrong theory that decks need a suspension based on old radiograms where the deck was in with the speakers me thinks.

Nonsense. The SME suspension has virtually zero Q (i.e. it is "dead"), and is in no way comparable to other high-Q suspensions. You can set bias on-the-fly with no sweat.

Maybe you should do a bit of reading.

 

[Time Audio]

Nonsense. The SME suspension has virtually zero Q (i.e. it is "dead"), and is in no way comparable to other high-Q suspensions. You can set bias on-the-fly with no sweat.

Maybe you should do a bit of reading.

Yeah been there, done that with my SME 20/2.

I hate bouncy decks now completely!!!

Don't get me wrong I like SME decks and these plus the Raven AC are amongst the best I have ever heard. They all have great focus in common. It is just that the Raven is like a super SME but it has something more to me and that is this ability to allow things just a little breathing space for you to hear things for just a bit longer and appreciate them before they are over. This adds to tonal definition, placement of individual instruments in a very real soundstage and other stuff like things having their own stop and start times etc that you only get at a real event - Lack of that last bit of smear if you like. The Raven dynamics are also considerably better than the 20 for example. To me that is getting more off the record which is my definition of a better turntable

 

[paskinn]

I went away from suspended decks simply because they sound so poor. Modifying the Orbe to a very stiff rubber suspension similar to what SME use got me a big improvement as did having the Amazon with rubber balls but getting rid of the suspension all-together - now that is when you get rid of turntable problems and start hearing what is actually on records!

Odd that you weren't saying all this stuff until you had your new deck to sell. Does that have a suspension...perhaps one expertly re-engineered by you with some stiff rubber bands and some rubber balls ?.
Good , sound, engineering. Do enlighten us more. It must do your reputation as a dealer no end of good.

 

[Blzebub]

Yeah been there, done that with my SME 20/2.

I hate bouncy decks now completely!!!

Don't get me wrong I like SME decks and these plus the Raven AC are amongst the best I have ever heard. They all have great focus in common. It is just that the Raven is like a super SME but it has something more to me and that is this ability to allow things just a little breathing space for you to hear things for just a bit longer and appreciate them before they are over. This adds to tonal definition, placement of individual instruments in a very real soundstage and other things you only get at a real event.

The SME is not a "bouncy" deck. It is the polar opposite of bouncy. I'm sorry, but if you are describing the SME as "bouncy", you have definitely never handled one. Q is virtually zero.

I'm building a picture here, and it has "ignorant hype" in black block capitals, on a white background.

Tell me, how do non-suspended decks deal with ambient vibration, reference F1eng's post upthread?

 

[Time Audio]

The SME is not a "bouncy" deck. It is the polar opposite of bouncy. I'm sorry, but if you are describing the SME as "bouncy", you have definitely never handled one. Q is virtually zero.

I'm building a picture here, and it has "ignorant hype" in black block capitals, on a white background.

Tell me, how do non-suspended decks deal with ambient vibration, reference F1eng's post upthread?

Did not say SME was bouncy! - But said I do hate actual bouncy decks now. I like SME - just the problem with writing / reading emails. I owned my 20/2 longer than any deck previously it was that good! So please retract your remark I never handled one and that in some way I'm ignorant. I have 30+ years experience with many different turntables!!! Sheesh!

I am however, stating I believe from my own experience that TW have now gone beyond what SME have accomplished and I'm trying to put that into words here.

 

[Blzebub]

Did not say SME was bouncy! - But said I do hate actual bouncy decks now. I like SME - just the problem with writing / reading emails. I owned my 20/2 longer than any deck previously it was that good! So please retract your remark I never handled one and that in some way I'm ignorant. I have 30+ years experience with many different turntables!!! Sheesh!

I am however, stating I believe from my own experience that TW have now gone beyond what SME have accomplished and I'm trying to put that into words here.

Er, OK. That's not what came across. I know you are trying to sell the Raven, so it's difficult to take you at face value. Same for all trade members, everyone has to make a living.

Could you answer my question, wrt F1eng's post about non-suspended decks, upthread?

 

[paskinn]

. I like SME - just the problem with writing / reading emails.

I suspect that good dealers sell by emphasising the virtues of their goods, never by criticising other manufacturers.
Every time you do that you risk alienating buyers who like the stuff you criticise.
The most successful businessmen I know, tend to praise the competition. They know buyers like that.

 

[Blzebub]

When I started work for Garrard in the engineering dept one of the first thing they got me to do was a rumble test.
It was completely impossible to get a consistent reading in the lab. The problem was not music feedback thought.
After leaving me struggling for a while my boss showed me the problem.
If you just looked at the cartridge output of the turntable sitting on a "rigid" bench on th 4th floor of a concrete building you could see the output due to a bus driving by on the road the other side of the carpark.
These are sensitive transducers.
For all measurements in the lab the subject turntable was put on a stack of paving slabs suspended from a huge frame by tension springs.

Two things came from this experience, first I located my kit in the adjacent room with speaker wires through the wall to the listening room. This was disappointingly dull sounding, so I came to the conclusion that I liked the delayed feedback, it is after all just a touch of buckshee extra reverb.
Secondly I decided any unsprung deck picked up -much- more ambient vibration than a sprung unit. One would expect quite a lot of extra bass...

This.

 

[Time Audio]

Odd that you weren't saying all this stuff until you had your new deck to sell. Does that have a suspension...perhaps one expertly re-engineered by you with some stiff rubber bands and some rubber balls ?.
Good , sound, engineering. Do enlighten us more. It must do your reputation as a dealer no end of good.

Some confusion here me thinks. So let me elaborate:

Over the years I have personally owned many turntables. Notables were Kuzma Reference, Michelle Orbe, SME 20/2 and Amazon One. I sold my Orbe a long time back but decided to buy it back from the friend I sold it to and modified it to the Gert Pedersen spec. This has O-ring suspension and tether threads as well as sand damping etc. This modified deck and my SME 20/2 are amongst the best I have owned and I sold the Orbe to another friend who still uses it. I also bought the Amazon One to try that uses rubber balls - (actually Sorbothane half balls) as a kind of suspension. I have used the Amazon to demo cartridges and I have used the 20/2 for many years as my own deck and was considering the 20/12 last year. However I also heard the Raven AC and preferred it for some of the reasons above. It is only recently I have become a turntable dealer and taken on selling TW. Hope this clears things up.

 

[Blzebub]

Great, but how does the Raven deal with ambient vibration? You appear to be ducking this question. Sorry to press you.

This is the (main) reason I chose a turntable with a proper suspension.

 

[Time Audio]

. I like SME - just the problem with writing / reading emails. QUOTE


I suspect that good dealers sell by emphasising the virtues of their goods, never by criticising other manufacturers.
Every time you do that you risk alienating buyers who like the stuff you criticise.
The most successful businessmen I know, tend to praise the competition. They know buyers like that.

Trying to show I believe there is an evolution and that the Raven is my current favourite part of that evolution. I have owned and liked the decks I have mentioned. However these products have had various flaws that I believe from it's sound the Raven AC has dealt with.

You know it is very difficult to describe things about my own experience without stating my experiences as a hobbyist in audio - which is what I thought Pink Fish was about - is that not the case? Just because it says Trade in my description does not mean I'm not a hobbyist first and foremost and want to share my experiences with people. What is the point in being part of a hobbyist blog site if I can't share my experiences?