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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+9)?

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MikeMA said:
So what is Labour viscerally in favour of?
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In terms of Brexit: permanent customs union, strong ties with single market, protection of workers rights and environmental standards.

None of the above is part of May's deal.

Kier Starmer explained Labour's position well on Newsnight a couple of days ago.

You'll have to judge the state of his viscera for yourself.
 
droodzilla said:
Permanent customs union, strong ties with single market, protection of workers rights and environmental standards.

None of the above is part of May's deal.

Kier Starmer explained Labour's position well on Newsnight a couple of days ago.

You'll have to judge the state of his viscera for yourself.
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Freedom of movement? ECJ? How strong are the "strong ties"? Would they actually extend to the UK being, shudder, part of the SM?
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I am sorry, but without specific details of how any technological solutions would work any claims are essentially as believable as
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PsB said:
How come, then, that Corbyn whipped his MPs (3-line whip, no less) to force them to back May's Brexit Bill, no amendments please?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ip-to-force-mps-to-back-unamended-brexit-bill

"But, but, but, that was in 2017", I hear you retort.
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Correct. A week is a long time in politics, remember?

It's obvious we're finally approaching crunch time.
It's equally obvious that May's deal fails Labour's tests on several fronts.
Therefore Labour will not support it.
I'd bet money on it.

What would you do now anyway?
 
droodzilla said:
Correct. A week is a long time in politics, remember?

It's obvious we're finally approaching crunch time.
It's equally obvious that May's deal fails Labour's tests on several fronts.
Therefore Labour will not support it.
I'd bet money on it.

What would you do now anyway?
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What I would do is totally beside the point. I'm not leading the Labour party, an MP or even a member. I personally believe the UK should remain in the EU, no ifs, no buts, no pie in the sky, and get serious about making that organization stronger, more democratically accountable, etc.
 
droodzilla said:
Correct. A week is a long time in politics, remember?

It's obvious we're finally approaching crunch time.
It's equally obvious that May's deal fails Labour's tests on several fronts.
Therefore Labour will not support it.
I'd bet money on it.

What would you do now anyway?
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You'd bet money on ALL labour supporting it?
 
eternumviti said:
It is entirely evident that the EU... is completely in thrall to, indeed largely owned by, BigCorp globalists and bankers... Witness VW 'dieselgate', which happened entirely on the watch of the European Commission.
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VW Dieselgate was a criminal conspiracy for which people have been imprisoned. To suggest that the EU has failed because someone broke the law is as ridiculous as saying that the Police have failed because there are still burglaries every day.
 
PsB said:
How come, then, that Corbyn whipped his MPs (3-line whip, no less) to force them to back May's Brexit Bill, no amendments please?
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ip-to-force-mps-to-back-unamended-brexit-bill

"But, but, but, that was in 2017", I hear you retort.
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PS: about the Guardian article which concerns the vote to trigger A50.

Firstly, it's clear that Labour were seeking amendments (which were defeated) at the time, so it wasn't just nodded through. Secondly, and more importantly, it would have been political suicide for Labour to vote against triggering A50 then. May would have called an election, Labour would have been crucified for "betraying" the referendum result and the Conservatives would have maintained or increased their majority, leaving them free to drive through whatever version of Brexit they wanted. The way Labour played it, the Conservatives lost their majority and there is now a realistic prospect of ending up with a very soft Brexit, or even stopping it altogether, in the event of Parliamentary deadlock and a second referendum.

I understand your desire to stay in the EU and reform it from within - that's my preferred option too. But there is the small matter of that referendum result (and the potential consequences of arbitrarily reversing it). At this stage, I'd be content with any outcome ranging from Soft Brexit to Stay & Reform. Both are still achievable. I don't believe we'd be in this position if Labour had adopted a "hard Remain" position from the outset.
 
TheDecameron said:
SmallCorp Right Wing Ethnic Nationalist. Are you by any chance a Metric Martyr as well?
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You can't quite help yourself, can you, these constant, unveiled and semi-shaded accusations of racism, continuously grinding away at it with the single objective of trying to elicit sufficiently intemperate a response from me to get me slung off the forum.

This is beginning to look like an obsession, and one that seems to be informed entirely by your inability to tolerate opinions that differ from your own. Intolerance of the opinions of other people; remember, there's a word for it.

Pounds and ounces, pints and hectolitres, litres and centilitres, feet and inches, centimetres and metres. Pounds and pence, but not Lsd, and definitely not Euros, which economic, social and political disasters apart, still sound to me deeply implicated with what happens in your cabinet.
 
eternumviti said:
OK, so you tell me why Corbyn wants the UK to leave the EU.
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All the "Corbyn is actually a Leaver!" stuff always ignores the fact that he put Starmer in charge, rather than someone more Lexity, like Gardiner. But never mind that. Let's say Corbo and McDonnell are actually, in their hearts, committed Leavers. What kind are they? Are they pragmatic Leavers, who'd like to get out of the EU because they think the EU will block their reform program? Or are they ideological Leavers, the left equivalent of the ERG sovereigntists, who hate the EU for what it represents and want to leave at any cost - that is, are they prepared to burn down the country for an idea?

It's not the latter is it? And if it's the former then they'd surely already have considered something that only just seems to be dawning on the ERG: that leaving an enormously powerful trading bloc doesn't free you from it. May's deal makes this clear: it will be harder for Labour to put their reforms into actions outside the EU than within it - the EU will have more leverage to block reform.

ISTM that either Corbyn and McDonnell get this, and don't actually want to leave, and are working for the softest possible Brexit and maybe Remain, or...they really are the ideological nut jobs some people think they are, and are willing to inflict suffering on the people they've dedicated their lives to helping for the sake of their pathological hatred of the EU. Which would actually make them nuttier than the ERG.

I don't know. Maybe they have some secret plan for a managed hard Brexit that squares all the circles and builds in defences against attack from the EU. But I think the likeliest scenario is that Starmer's plan is actually the plan and that Labour are going for softest possible Brexit or possibly Remain.
 
stevec67 said:
VW Dieselgate was a criminal conspiracy for which people have been imprisoned. To suggest that the EU has failed because someone broke the law is as ridiculous as saying that the Police have failed because there are still burglaries every day.
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Because of their vast lobbying power within the corridors of Brussels, VW effectively framed the rules within which they were able to conduct the fraud. The EU failed, explicitly so.

There are more burglaries every day because the police don't investigate them. That in itself may be a symptom of many things (yes, cutbacks), but it remains a failure.

I was encouraged to see that the police are now responding to the recent fashion for moped-based robbery by mowing the culprits down with their cars. There has apparently been a sharp fall in the number of moped crimes.
 
I think we are on a 'managed hard Brexit' ticket now, as the Brexit Torys call it.

May's deal is rejected. We crash out next March. The Brexiteer idea is that the ensuing chaos will bring the EU back to the negotiation table.

Raaaaab et. al. say it's be ' a small disruption'.

I just hope a Tory Brexiteer is in charge when that happens.

Stephen
 
eternumviti said:
I was encouraged to see that the police are now responding to the recent fashion for moped-based robbery by mowing the culprits down with their cars. There has apparently been a sharp fall in the number of moped crimes.
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I hope you enjoy paying for the personal injury claims this will bring on.

Stephen
 
stephen bennett said:
I think we are on a 'managed hard Brexit' ticket now, as the Brexit Torys call it.

May's deal is rejected. We crash out next March. The Brexiteer idea is that the ensuing chaos will bring the EU back to the negotiation table.

Raaaaab et. al. say it's be ' a small disruption'.

I just hope a Tory Brexiteer is in charge when that happens.

Stephen
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The deal itself is already a hard Brexit, it’s just not quite insane enough for some.
 
eternumviti said:
There are more burglaries every day
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Are you sure about that? What's your source? ONS report from 2017 show the opposite - burglary rates down sharply since the mid '90s (whether measured by crime surveys or recorded crime).

"In the survey year ending March 2017, around 2 in 100 households had been victims of domestic burglary; this compares with around 9 in 100 households in the year ending December 1995, meaning that households are currently four times less likely to be a victim of burglary than in 1995." (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...urglaryandotherhouseholdtheft/englandandwales)

Also looks like the 'gap' between crime survey figures and police recorded crime (for burglary) is closing - hardly a sign of worsening police performance I would have thought.
 
I witnessed a bike robbery in Malaga where a 64 year old lady had her bag snatched whilst still around her arm, some things you can't unsee. Not nice, biker didn't even stop until the strap freed itself from the poor woman some 50 metres up the road.

I'd have paid to see a Guardia vehicle appear and do the same to the rider in all fairness.
 
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