Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+9)?

[TheDecameron]

Plenty of non-EU immigration to balance the skills and labour shortage - that will keep the gammon happy. They were always so much more amenable to non-EU immigrants back in the 70s, oh how they laughed at “Love Thy Neighbour.”

Many of them are so thick, they were asking British Asians when they were going back at the time of the 2016 referendum and they weren’t asking nicely.

 

[droodzilla]

That’s my point, you exist in a vacuum here. A single issue poster and you work assiduously at it.

Yeah, EV never stops whining.

 

[droodzilla]

This analysis overlooks the single most important of May’s red lines - ending freedom of movement. May is still trying to do the job she tried but failed so cruelly at the home office. No amount of economic damage , national humiliation or future vassalage is too great provided she ends freedom of movement.

She's like the Terminator. She won't stop until she's got immigration down. A bloody difficult - and wicked - woman.

 

[eternumviti]

Yeah, EV never stops whining.

Have you not looked at virtually this entire thread. Haven't you even noticed its title?

 

[jackbarron]

Two things:
- as you and Seanm have pointed out, Labour's preference does not matter much at the moment as they're not in power. The Conservatives have shown they are good at holding on to power, even in desperate times.
- the small matter of timing. You assume that Labour can seize power and form a government, throw off the veil of cunning tactics and have the democratic policy debate with members it avoided at the last conference, agree on a suitably democratic position of Norway + CU, sell it to Parliament and the rest of the country, get negotiations moving with the EU, maybe repeal Art. 50 while explaining to the EU they still want out ("will of the people, you know"), get some sort of buy-in from Brussels and 27 member states (sufficient to get more extensions), negotiate a few opt-outs Corbyn wants, and all this in time to avoid a March 29 hard exit. Piece of cake.
And you think the other side will go along with all this because they prefer Labour cakeism to Tory cakeism.
All this is possible, but I wouldn't bet the shop on it.

Labour's cakeism is complete nonsense. Meanwhile Corbyn supports the idea of Brexit and is intent on selling out future of the UK. Why? Because a percentage of Labour supporters in northern towns went for the racist option and voted Leave.

According to the latest polls, many have changed their mind and want to Remain.

The Labour Party are too thick to take this on board. Plus a firm Brexiteer is in charge of them.

Jack

 

[eternumviti]

Labour's cakeism is complete nonsense. Meanwhile Corbyn supports the idea of Brexit and is intent on selling out future of the UK. Why? Because a percentage of Labour supporters in northern towns went for the racist option and voted Leave. According to the latest polls many have changed their mind and want to Remain.

Maybe a tiny bit, but mainly so that a Labour government circumvent EU restrictions in order to carry out a true socialist agenda, you know, state aid for failing industries, nationalisation of private companies, expropriation of private and commercial property, that kind of thing. I thought that was what you wanted.

 

[Minio]

Brexit is not racist!

All animals are not elephants.

Why can't people employ basic logic!?

 

[jackbarron]

Maybe a tiny bit, but mainly so that a Labour government circumvent EU restrictions in order to carry out a true socialist agenda, you know, state aid for failing industries, nationalisation of private companies, expropriation of private and commercial property, that kind of thing. I thought that was what you wanted.

Above all I want to stay in the EU. We're leaving on the back of lies and empty promises. An informed debate hasn't taken place yet. We had no idea what the final Brexit deal was before the Referendum and we still don't.

I've just watched Paul Simonon and Damon Albarn on Channel 4 News, talking about Brexit and their latest The Good, The Bad & The Queen album Merrie England.

They think a proper debate on Brexit should take place in the next year or two, based on whatever draft Brexit deal is agreed, and then there should be a public vote.

May will scuttle away from this of course, followed by her socialist acolyte Jeremy Corbyn.

I don't know about Jezza, but May refused to say today that Brexit will have a better result than Remaining. Her and Corbyn deserve each other, they are both con artists.

Jack

 

[eternumviti]

Above all I want to stay in the EU. We're leaving on the back of lies and empty promises. An informed debate hasn't taken place yet. We had no idea what the final Brexit deal would be before the Referendum and we still don't.

I've just watched Paul Simonon and Damon Albarn on Channel 4 News, talking about Brexit and their latest The Good, The Bad & The Queen album Merrie England.

They think a proper debate on Brexit should take place in the next year or two, based on whatever draft Brexit deal is agreed, and then there should be a public vote on it.

May will scuttle away from this of course, followed by her socialist acolyte Jeremy Corbyn.

I don't know about Jezza, but May refused to say today that Brexit have a better result than Remaining. Her and Corbyn deserve each other, they are both con artists.

Jack

So you want a true socialist government, but you want to stay in the EU. Surely this is incoherent 'cakeism'. There isn't a single socialist government in the EU, because EU laws wouldn't permit it.

Why do you want to stay in the EU, and how will you achieve a true socialist state if you do?

 

[jackbarron]

So you want a true socialist government, but you want to stay in the EU. Surely this is incoherent 'cakeism'. There isn't a single socialist government in the EU, because EU laws wouldn't permit it.

Why do you want to stay in the EU, and how will you achieve a true socialist state if you do?

Without wishing to be rude, I have no interest in debating with you. You'll have to find your own key to unlock your closed mind.

Jack

 

[eternumviti]

Without wishing to be rude, I have no interest in debating with you. You'll have to find your own key to unlock your closed mind.

Jack

So speaks a man with what must uncontestably be....?

 

[eternumviti]

Brexit is not racist!

All animals are not elephants.

Why can't people employ basic logic!?

Well, since you asked the question...

 

[tuga]

So you want a true socialist government, but you want to stay in the EU. Surely this is incoherent 'cakeism'. There isn't a single socialist government in the EU, because EU laws wouldn't permit it.

Why do you want to stay in the EU, and how will you achieve a true socialist state if you do?

The Portuguese government is a coalition led by the Socialist Party, with minoritary representation of the Intellectual Comunists and the Green Party which is also Communist.

The Spanish are currently governed by the Socialist Party.

 

[eternumviti]

It's the nearest thing in the EU, but it's far from being the radical socialist government that some here want. The EU will squeeze the radicalism out of it every time.

 

[ian123running]

Et that is nonsense. Loads of the EU’s programmes and expenditure are wonderfully socialist and there have surely been socialist governments within the EU family.

 

[tuga]

It's the nearest thing in the EU, but it's far from being the radical socialist government that some here want. The EU will squeeze the radicalism out of it every time.

See, the EU isn't all bad...

And I've yet to see signs of people wanting a Soviet-style government here or anywhere else in Europe.
I am a lot more worried with the rise of the far-right...

 

[TheDecameron]

Brexit is not racist!

All animals are not elephants.

Why can't people employ basic logic!?

You are Bernard Manning and I claim my fiver.

“They actually think they're English because they're born here. That means if a dog's born in a stable, it's a horse.”

 

[TheDecameron]

So you want a true socialist government, but you want to stay in the EU. Surely this is incoherent 'cakeism'. There isn't a single socialist government in the EU, because EU laws wouldn't permit it.

Why do you want to stay in the EU, and how will you achieve a true socialist state if you do?

You’re forgetting your favourite Socialist EU country aren’t you? The one you’ve made impassioned pleas about- for having their very generous public spending taken away by...the big bad EU.

Maybe a tiny bit, but mainly so that a Labour government circumvent EU restrictions in order to carry out a true socialist agenda, you know, state aid for failing industries, nationalisation of private companies, expropriation of private and commercial property, that kind of thing. I thought that was what you wanted.

But I thought you liked state intervention- you know, protect us from the globalist big corps. Your ‘anti globalist’ and ‘anti-business elites’ stance, not to mention the poor African farmers. You were sounding very “Labour” then. What happened? Which one’s the troll post? You’re about as anti- business elites as Aaron Banks or Richard Tice.

 

[PsB]

Speaking for myself, my understanding of the situation doesn’t turn on any of that: it turns on things changing after May’s deal is voted down, and on absolutely no one with any clout wanting no deal. Your argument seems to turn on not acknowledging these things. I don’t know where that leaves you, practically speaking: supporting May’s Brexit I guess.

Yes, I've noticed by now. You refuse to acknowledge the ticking clock, the calendar and the simple fact that 27 other parties to the negotiation may have their own interests and points of view. The world revolves around Whitehall. This enables you to dream up scenarios that make you feel good about Labour's lack of opposition to Brexit.

I am viscerally opposed to May's Brexit. I wish one could say the same about your party.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Brexit is not racist!

All animals are not elephants.

Why can't people employ basic logic!?

There is a set of people who want Brexit, call this set B and B contains Nb members.
We don't know what Nb is, but we can be sure it was > 17.5 million in 2006.
Opinion polls suggest it is less than that now.
There is set of people who are racist, call this set R and R contains Nr members.

The question is (really) does B Union R approximate B in total, IE is the set B U (not R) very small such that NbUr is insignificant compared to the overall population.

I think given the evidence so far we can almost assumes that R is a subset of B (all racists support Brexit) in any real calculation.

The trick is understanding how many members of B are not members of R. Some (at least three) are in B because they want to be Prime Minister and so might not be members if R. Some (however many work in Rees-Moggs trust fund + quite a few more) want to get rich sorting Sterling as our babies die of starvation. So that is a few more. And there is at least one who want to re-nationalise everything, but is definitely very anti-racist. [And not anti-semtic either unless you believe some very dodgy people]

The other 17.5 million plus? Bit of a guess. But I think all racists support Brexit, but not every brexit supporters is a racist is a good enough (rough) starting point.