Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+11)?

[HarryB]

Surely Harry is an old school Labour lefty and his dislike of Alistair Campbell would be obvious? And I can't think of many people less likely to apologise for Stephen C***tly-Racist.

As you correctly point out Matthew I'm a lifelong leftie socialist. TonyL was, I assume just having a cheap shot like others like to do from time to time. Pathetic really but no big deal to me.

 

[Lee T]

I think I'd have to agree. People have had 2 years of others politely, clearly explaining the facts.

I'm sorry but this is not the case. Since 2016, it has been ridicule & the all encompassing negativity of leaving, I would have preferred for the "experts" to say why another ref is a good option, offered with a positive outlook, rather than the "negative impact" of Brexit.

If your a believer in polls then not enough has changed to merit another ref, which tells it's own story about how the current way has failed.

It's that old chestnut regarding clinging onto your raincoat while the wind is blowing or removing it when the sun arrives.

 

[HairyHaggis]

I kinda think that's generally what they are (still) doing. And I guess you mean that in contradistinction to the toxic lies and poison we hear about the EU. Ah well

 

[Tony L]

Can you not see the disparity here.
When all else fails, when there is nowhere else to attack & Cameron offers a chance to voice how they feel, where do you think the type you call idiots, the disabled you mention, those on low income you mention are to go, no one was listening, no one gave a shit, little option but to stand up & shout, as loud as possible, desperate, yes, idiots, no. I understand why they did this, I see it, I live amongst it, it's nasty, it's degrading, it places people in a position where, thankfully, many will never find themselves & have no way of knowing how they too would react in this environment.

As I stated there is no demographic here. Huge numbers of disabled and low income people voted to remain for exactly the reasons I state. You are trying to make this a class thing, not me. If you fell for millionaire spiv rhetoric from financial speculators such as Farage, Banks, for the whims of tax-exile gutter press barons etc, to lash out at David Cameron or whatever that can not be blamed on class nor on wealth. Many in all walks of life did so. Do not for a second think you speak for the poor or disabled!

 

[Lee T]

Do not for a second think you speak for the poor or disabled!

I certainly don't, but I do base my views in this area on experience, as many do here I would imagine, when they feel strongly about a subject matter & have worked or are working in the area they are discussing.
Nice deflection though

 

[matthewr]

I'd be less confident of that than the source you quoted. The previous policy of 'keep the pound' was mainly to avoid disruption in a context where that was easier in practice than adopting the Euro - which would have been delayed until such time as EU membership could be acquired/regained. I suspect that the SNP would accept the Euro if that were an entry requirement for the EU once the UK had left.

The problem with joining the Euro for the Scots is that Scotland is to a large extent an oil based economy and so is very likely to be countercyclical to the Euro and interests rate policy is likely going to be somewhere between sub-optimal and Greece.

Having said that if I was Scottish I would be pro-independence after Brexit fiasco. You should form a union with London and leave the rest of England to enjoy their sunny uplands

 

[eternumviti]

I enjoy it when you accidentally let your junk hang out rather than all the distraction through pedantry and coyness. You’re a white English nationalist and it shines out of your posts even with all that self-censorship. Let your hair down a bit. It’s the weekend- you can go crazy.

When I pressed 'Post Reply' on my opinion of Lammy's codswallop this morning, I heard the telltale click, and the distant, hollow thunk, and waited, and waited...

It was a long time in flight, the better, no doubt, to gather a weighty charge of bitter bullshit and vitriol. You excelled yourself.

David Lammy has an agenda, and so do you. He seems to share with the leader of the Labour party a disdain for the UK, even if their objectives are quite different. You have a disdain for anyone who happens to disagree with you, and you are quite prepared to play dirty to get those opinions off this forum.

 

[Lee T]

I kinda think that's generally what they are (still) doing. And I guess you mean that in contradistinction to the toxic lies and poison we hear about the EU. Ah well

This is the issue, we hear lots of negativity from leave, we rarely hear positives about remaining of late, if there was ever a time for this, it's now for anyone who wishes to remain & wish for another ref. Keep banging on about the negatives regarding leave will only diminish support I would have thought.

 

[Tony L]

I certainly don't, but I do base my views in this area on experience, as many do here I would imagine, when they feel strongly about a subject matter & have worked or are working in the area they are discussing.

I have in the past worked as a psychiatric nurse, with the mentally disabled (Downs, Autism etc), and as an adult educator training the long-term unemployed for new careers in IT. You? Oh, I remember, its ‘secret’...

 

[Lee T]

I have in the past worked as a psychiatric nurse, with the mentally disabled (Downs, Autism etc), and as an adult educator training the long-term unemployed for new careers in IT. You? Oh, I remember, its ‘secret’...

You have worked with people on a first hand, daily basis I have not, it's no secret I work as neither a support worker with the poor or disabled on a first hand basis, in the environment you are speaking of or dealing with & supporting the disabled as you have, in this environment, I do often cross lines with all of the above amongst many other avenues when the need arises, which does not include IT or anything along these lines, in the main.

I mainly deal with life on the outside of the confines of the areas you speak of, it's eye opening, sometimes upsetting but often rewarding.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I agree, sections who voted leave were led along the path with promises of fairy land on the horizon, the desperate who voted leave from sheer self preservation, were not of this ilk, they were led by personal experience, nothing more, the EU was not an afterthought, neither was immigration or "the bus", only a chance to scream, many had little understanding of the consequences of leaving, mainky down to attitude from the remain camp, too much information, too many sating the rightly or wrongly, I get why.

A question for you: these desperate people you describe, do they usually vote (ie, in general elections, local elections)?

I ask because I agree that there are many people like this, and that they have been left behind. But my impression is that they don't usually vote, and if they did usually vote we might well have a Parliament with a greater number of MPs who were alive to their plight, and minded to do something about it. Politicians firstly chase, and then follow the votes. If you're in a constituency which is invisible to them, why would they concern themselves with your interests?

So while I do have some sympathy for such people, they haven't helped themselves in ways that have been open to them for decades; and what they have done now will only make things worse for them. So I have sympathy, but I can't respect their choices.

 

[Lee T]

So while I do have some sympathy for such people, they haven't helped themselves in ways that have been open to them for decades; and what they have done now will only make things worse for them. So I have sympathy, but I can't respect their choices.

Really? the people I speak of have been voting against the government since it became blindingly clear they were of little importance to society, I mean, why would you think someone in such a desperate situation wouldn't vote FFS, where do you acquire this knowledge, it's all they have, it's all anyone has to make a difference & be heard, it hasn't gone to plan, we still have this bunch in charge of matters.
I wonder if you live on planet earth sometimes or at the very least, in the UK.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Thank you for the counter-argument.

Is there any chance you could deliver it without the side-order of ad-hom in the future?

I found this:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/16/poverty-election-vote-apathy

In this context, it is not surprising that so many of the poorest people choose not to vote. Theirs is not an act of apathy – for they are often intensely political – but of disgust. It is also a politicised expression of the extent to which politicians do not seek to represent them.

What is more surprising is that those I’ve spoken to so often see a case for further welfare reform, even though they are directly affected. Individuals described the importance of getting tough on some “other” who was judged undeserving of state support. <snip> As the “othered”, themselves, they seek to manage and deflect the pervasive stigma of benefits. Such is the strength and spread of the dominant narrative on “welfare”, that it is perhaps difficult for individuals to do anything else. Ironically, the replication of this narrative by the poorest reinforces it, and reduces the scope for alternative accounts to gain ground.

It's a vicious circle. Not voting means politicians are less likely to represent them. Which makes them less likely to vote.

 

[Lee T]

Thank you for the counter-argument.

Is there any chance you could deliver it without the side-order of ad-hom in the future?

I found this:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/16/poverty-election-vote-apathy



It's a vicious circle. Not voting means politicians are less likely to represent them. Which makes them less likely to vote.

I imagine there are many who voted leave who are of the poor end of society & of the wealthier end but feel disaffected by the whole procedure, maybe for a UKIP led immigration rally, who knows, I can imagine such people not voting as their lives are stable but ignorant, plenty of poor people enjoy a happy existence, wealth doesn't always bring fulfillment, but those who are affected, to a severe degree, especially over the last 8 years, will vote at every opportunity for what they believe in in my experience, those who voted in protest against Cameron will have voted against the Tories since 2010 at the very least, not all poor people are the same, they are human beings with differing emotions, they are entitled to have differing opinions, poor doesn't equal, racist leave voter, you do realise this I would hope.

There is no vicious circle, just people deciding not to vote, rich or poor, as they do not feel the need, their lives are not too bad overall, or have little empathy for people in a worse state than their own, this type are not complaining so have little need to act.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The problem with joining the Euro for the Scots is that Scotland is to a large extent an oil based economy and so is very likely to be countercyclical to the Euro and interests rate policy is likely going to be somewhere between sub-optimal and Greece.

Having said that if I was Scottish I would be pro-independence after Brexit fiasco. You should form a union with London and leave the rest of England to enjoy their sunny uplands

Actually, the oil income was mainly for large international corporations and the UK coffers. That has been a historic bone of contention for the SNP. And in reality, the big growth in Scotland has been more recently in areas like wind-generated power.(1) So the Scottish economy isn't so 'oil based' as people may assume. Again, what you experience depends on which part of Scotland someone visits or has in mind. Aberdeen is well known for oil and the best way to speak english.

I doubt we'd want to twin with London because the City tends to cripple the rest of the UK economy. Cuckoo in the nest!

(1) One bonus here was annoying Trump. ;->

 

[eternumviti]

...I doubt we'd want to twin with London because the City tends to cripple the rest of the UK economy. Cuckoo in the nest!

I thought the City was the UK economy!

 

[Nick_G]

When I pressed 'Post Reply' on my opinion of Lammy's codswallop this morning, I heard the telltale click, and the distant, hollow thunk, and waited, and waited...

It was a long time in flight, the better, no doubt, to gather a weighty charge of bitter bullshit and vitriol. You excelled yourself.

David Lammy has an agenda, and so do you. He seems to share with the leader of the Labour party a disdain for the UK, even if their objectives are quite different. You have a disdain for anyone who happens to disagree with you, and you are quite prepared to play dirty to get those opinions off this forum.

Really? I saw more leadership in Lammy's speech than the vast majority of politicians (including Jeremy Corbyn) regarding the folly that is Brexit. His way forward is the only way that Labour will be able to deliver their policy of 'for the many, not the few' without the compromises that any form of Brexit will bring. I think going recklessly ahead with the outcome of a fraudulently-won referendum that has emboldened racists, will make us poorer, and reduced our influence, has severely damaged the UK's reputation and has made us an object of ridicule. Here is someone who has the balls to publicly state he will go against any form of Brexit because it is against the interests of his constituents and the country. That is what leadership is about.

I wish to God I had him as my MP.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

I imagine there are many who voted leave who are of the poor end of society & of the wealthier end but feel disaffected by the whole procedure, maybe for a UKIP led immigration rally, who knows, I can imagine such people not voting as their lives are stable but ignorant, plenty of poor people enjoy a happy existence, wealth doesn't always bring fulfillment, but those who are affected, to a severe degree, especially over the last 8 years, will vote at every opportunity for what they believe in in my experience, those who voted in protest against Cameron will have voted against the Tories since 2010 at the very least, not all poor people are the same, they are human beings with differing emotions, they are entitled to have differing opinions, poor doesn't equal, racist leave voter, you do realise this I would hope.

There is no vicious circle, just people deciding not to vote, rich or poor, as they do not feel the need, their lives are not too bad overall, or have little empathy for people in a worse state than their own, this type are not complaining so have little need to act.

But this kind of reinforces my point. I do recognise that poor does not equal racist, but poorly educated does broadly equal leave (in a demographic sense, this is by now well established fact), and poorly educated tends to correlate to poorly paid, or unemployed. And, by and large, this demographic is less likely to vote, and if it does vote, is less likely to assess and evaluate the options carefully before casting its vote (not least because it is poorly educated and lacking in the tools to do so). So it votes with its gut. This makes it more susceptible to the sort of insidious Facebook campaigns we heard about, not to mention the Big Red Bus, and Farage's despicable migration poster.

 

[matthewr]

I doubt we'd want to twin with London because the City tends to cripple the rest of the UK economy. Cuckoo in the nest!

By cripple you mean pay for! London generates about 22% of UK GDP which is about the same as Saudi Arabia's GDP.

 

[TheDecameron]

There were several polls predicting that in a binary choice between 'no Brexit' and 'no deal' the latter would receive approximately 50% of the votes. I'd say that was evidence that a big section of society has been brainwashed into extremism by examples I gave previously!

This is what the Brexit debate is crystallising out to. Even the government has finally (under duress) now presented data showing that Brexit will damage the economy. She’s admitted (or rather her civil service analysis has demonstrated) paying into the E.U. makes us better off than being outside it. So if it’s not about more money for the NHS etc. what it about? Well, the Prime Minister has repeated it at every opportunity- “ending free movement”.