Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+11)?

[Seanm]

No. That is a fair point. But the idea that people voted Leave just to stick it up a few people who annoy them with no regard to the consequences for themselves and families doesn't reflect well on them either. Not smart.

Raga’s not really talking about people who are a bit annoyed here.

 

[Nick_G]

Can you not see the disparity here.
When all else fails, when there is nowhere else to attack & Cameron offers a chance to voice how they feel, where do you think the type you call idiots, the disabled you mention, those on low income you mention are to go, no one was listening, no one gave a shit, little option but to stand up & shout, as loud as possible, desperate, yes, idiots, no. I understand why they did this, I see it, I live amongst it, it's nasty, it's degrading, it places people in a position where, thankfully, many will never find themselves & have no way of knowing how they too would react in this environment.
You see idiots, I see desperate people wanting to be heard, after venturing into every avenue possible & having the door closed in their faces at every turn, it's anger, it's frustration, it's understandable.

Unfortunately desperate people are vulnerable targets for manipulation by demagogues, the far-right and fascists. It's how Germany descended into fascism in the 1930s, and how the US is descending into oligarchy under Trump. We've seen where this goes. History is unambiguous on this.

 

[Lee T]

Unfortunately desperate people are vulnerable targets for manipulation by demagogues

I agree, sections who voted leave were led along the path with promises of fairy land on the horizon, the desperate who voted leave from sheer self preservation, were not of this ilk, they were led by personal experience, nothing more, the EU was not an afterthought, neither was immigration or "the bus", only a chance to scream, many had little understanding of the consequences of leaving, mainky down to attitude from the remain camp, too much information, too many sating the rightly or wrongly, I get why.

If another ref is offered, maybe those in charge could offer some support for this section of society, show they are willing to back off a little, offer some guidance, do I think this will happen, nope, same old same old, types like Campbell looking down & belittling, the country is f^cked it carries on this way i'm afraid, until the ignorance is removed, we will be forever on a loop.

 

[SteveS1]

They didn't, but having this attitude thrust in their faces will help nothing for the future, this is my point. To convince leavers to vote remain will take a sea change in attitude when explaining any benefit of remaining in the EU.

Fair point but 'having this attitude' thrust in their faces applies all the way round.

As someone who is naturally inclined to support re-distribution and greater social responsibilty - watching Nissan workers celebrate a vote that will likely cost them and others their jobs like they had just won the FA Cup can also be pretty nauseating.

 

[SteveS1]

Raga’s not really talking about people who are a bit annoyed here.

I didn't say he was.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

What, for a future comprising the unbearably smug wee Nicola, the unbearably brash carpetbagger Verhofstadt, and unbearable midges?

I doubt it.

Well, the midgies aren't everywhere in Scotland. The country is a bit bigger and more varied in environment than some might assume. And although I'm not particularly a fan of the SNP I'd credit Nicola with having a bit more of a clue than many an English MP.

 

[Nick_G]

I agree, sections who voted leave were led along the path with promises of fairy land on the horizon, the desperate who voted leave from sheer self preservation, were not of this ilk, they were led by personal experience, nothing more, the EU was not an afterthought, neither was immigration or "the bus", only a chance to scream, rightly or wrongly, I get why.

There were several polls predicting that in a binary choice between 'no Brexit' and 'no deal' the latter would receive approximately 50% of the votes. I'd say that was evidence that a big section of society has been brainwashed into extremism by examples I gave previously!

 

[Lee T]

Fair point but 'having this attitude' thrust in their faces applies all the way round.

As someone who is naturally inclined to support re-distribution and greater social responsibilty - watching Nissan workers celebrate a vote that will likely cost them and others their jobs like they had just won the FA Cup can also be pretty nauseating.

The uneducated need educating, not ridiculing, it's the only way forward, blame gets us where we are now, a country divided 2 years on with another ref on the horizon, maybe, worth thinking about before jumping in head first.

We have had 2 & a half years to address this situation, we are no further forward than before the ref.

 

[SteveS1]

Well, the midgies aren't everywhere in Scotland. The country is a bit bigger and more varied in environment than some might assume. And although I'm not particularly a fan of the SNP I'd credit Nicola with having a bit more of a clue than many an English MP.

Low bar that.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Lexiteer Richard Tuck reckons that independence would be much less appealing after Brexit: Scotland would be required to join the Euro, the EU would be a more integrated body, and thus independence from the UK would involve a much more significant breach than it would under current conditions. Soft unionist sentiment was obviously already strong enough to win it for No the last time: not unreasonable to expect the prospect of more intense estrangement to amplify that.

I'd be less confident of that than the source you quoted. The previous policy of 'keep the pound' was mainly to avoid disruption in a context where that was easier in practice than adopting the Euro - which would have been delayed until such time as EU membership could be acquired/regained. I suspect that the SNP would accept the Euro if that were an entry requirement for the EU once the UK had left.

I agree, though, that it is far from clear that most Scots would *prefer* independence - as things have stood, anyway. However leaving the EU does rather change the context so minds may also change.

 

[SteveS1]

The uneducated need educating, not ridiculing, it's the only way forward, blame gets us where we are now, a country divided 2 years on.

True but show me instances where attempts at educating have resulted in anything other than resentment so far? What tactic would you employ to facilitate a re-think?

We seem to have a large group who prefer a siege mentality of "if I'm being told it's bad for me - it must be good". Not sure you can do much with that, until the shit hits the fan. Then it won't be their fault of course.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Not sure what Verhofstad has to do with it and are you seriously saying that Sturgeon is worse than the bunch of *&%kwits that have got us into the current hopeless situation?

The midges are a pain though.

The tops of the Munroes are also often cold and windy... but in reality most Scots don't live in those places. Good for tourists, though...

 

[Lee T]

True but show me instances where attempts at educating has resulted in anything other than resentment so far? What tactic would you employ to facilitate a re-think?

I would think beginning with stopping calling people idiots would be a good move, remove the blame element, then move on to the positives of remaining, rather than the negatives of leaving, we live in a depressed society, it needs positivity to move forward, if someone asks a question, fine, but begin with a healthy outlook if we remain, people need this to vote, as with anything in life, we need a reason to fight for what we are voting for.

Maybe offer the benefits of immigration, how immigrants are good for our society rather offering up anyone who votes leave are racist scum who hate brown people, if people are told the truth in a confident, assuring & comforting manner, people will listen.
Problem is, we have blown it, there is little time left to turn the tide.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Low bar that.

Fair comment. OK, I'll raise it to "anyone in the current or recent Westminster cabinet". Still low, but perhaps more of an indicator of the significance of the difference.

 

[SteveS1]

I would think beginning with stopping calling people idiots would be a good move, remove the blame element, then move on to the positives of remaining, rather than the negatives of leaving, we live in a depressed society, it needs positivity to move forward, if someone asks a question, fine, but begin with a healthy outlook if we remain, people need this to vote, as with anything in life, we need a reason to fight for what we are voting for.

I don't share your view, there is such denial in place that I fear people will have to sample the reality.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The midgies point made me realise that I have seen more pine martins in my garden in the last 30 years here than I've seen, or been bitten by, midgies. 8-]

 

[PsB]

Vagueness is a collective effort, and an effective one: for instance, it allows you to castigate the leadership for not leading, while saying, Credit to Starmer! Forgetting that the leadership put him in charge.

I really don't know what to make of the sneering at unicorns on the one hand and the stamping of feet about politicians not being completely upfront at all times and stating exactly what they think about everything - something that has never, ever happened, let alone in such a complex situation, and never could in a parliamentary democracy. Leaders should lead! For God's sake.

Without belittling your reading skills, I have castigated Corbyn and McDonnell, esp. Corbyn, and will contique to do so until he deigns to outline a coherent plan (one, for instance, that takes into account the realities of the Brexit negotiation).

Your defence of "but Starmer!" is getting threadbare: it is obvious that Labour is almost as divided on the subject of Brexit as the Conservative Party, with factions, conflicting views etc. The fact that Starmer has been able to influence the Party's position (in a way I find positive) does not mean that Corbyn holds the same views (Corbyn's probably on the side of those arguing the opposite case).

The rest of your post is caricature. The only point I'm making is that Corbyn's paper in the Guardian is selling a dream that has absolutely zero chance of happening, which strikes me as deeply cynical and somewhat irresponsible. (Cue your next post "shocked, yes shocked that politicians are cynical". But wasn't Corbyn supposed to be better than that?). And you're the one that brought up the L word again.

 

[HarryB]

I can’t imagine an ex-Rothermere/Dacre employee such as yourself would have much in common with Alistair Campbell. Shouldn’t you have been interviewing Farage or telling us Yaxley-Lennon “wasn’t all bad” and “just saying what we all think” or something like that?

Yawn. As I've said many times before, I have written for many of the UK's national newspapers. I also worked for the BBC. But you choose not to mention that in order to make some worthless point. Just like someone the other day in a comment you deleted, claimed with absolute certainty that I'd worked for the News of the World when there is no truth at all in it.

As for not having much in common with Campbell, we were and are Labour Party members.

Farage and Yaxley-Lennon hadn't been invented when I was working in journalism.

 

[Lee T]

I don't share your view, there is such denial in place that I fear people will have to sample the reality.

So how would you go about it.
Do you not think it sensible to offer people the truth about immigration, how having open borders benefits the UK, would you prefer to stay with the current, anyone voting leave are racist idiots approach.

 

[HairyHaggis]

I don't share your view, there is such denial in place that I fear people will have to sample the reality.

I think I'd have to agree. People have had 2 years of others politely, clearly explaining the facts. Pundits, politicians, experts, economists from around the globe. And still they would vote for John bull. I think the reality will probably have to be experienced for this generation.