MDAC first listen (part XXIV)

[Bob L]

Hi John,

Count me in on the new scheme for L2 + Toy- my original request is buried somewhere in part XXIII- I can dig it out if you need it for establishing the queue. Please PM me if/when I need to order the resistor kit (I guess it will be a while...) and when and how you want the payments.
This seems a much more practical arrangement- I could not imagine how you were going to be able to keep up the pace (even without somebody peering over your shoulder...)

 

[jirij]

If its decided to go the USB2.0 / 768Fs we will use our own solution - I'LL NEVER touch XMOS its terrible on the hardware side - and the supplied drivers for windows are very unstable!

We will support the USB20 standard - you will be OK with Linux and Mac - not sure what we will do for a 192KHz+ driver for Windows users yet (there us an open source Asio driver) - although 96/24 will work without drivers.

John,
there's - as far as I know - no standard way of switching a device from 96/24 to 192/24. Manufacturers use custom instructions and USB commands in their USB2.0 drivers, I've seen some of them in the linux kernel (reverse engineered using very expensive sniffers). So the only "clean" solution would be USB2-only, ... unless you can provide some kind of a hardware micro switch on the PCB or so.
If there's really a working and stable way to get it working via ASIO, I wouldn't bother. I know of some other (not sure if 100% legal) way to get it working without the limitations of ASIO (reduced I/O throughtput).

If you're really going for a custom hardware implementation, I could test it for you on various linux kernel versions from the last 6 years or so (to simulate various embedded devices / players as well).

 

[lapkwan]

...........
The first 20 or so customers who have paid the Toy / Fusion upgraded MDAC’s can then send them back to me here in CZ once the upgrade PCB is available and I’ll transplant the “Precious” Bulk Foil resistors onto the new MDAC PCB (the PCB will be design for both options) – for the cost price of the new PCB which I'm guessing at around GBP120…

I think I'm one of those first 20 because I've paid hificollective for the fusion kits and have it sent to John. I also want to know if the DSD/786Fs is really so popular, indispensable to justify the extra time and effort? Personally I don't mind waiting a bit longer if that means something better, in my mind it's always sound quality rather than new features. Anyway I support this new PCB proposal and thanks John for his efforts.

 

[JohnW]

John,
there's - as far as I know - no standard way of switching a device from 96/24 to 192/24. Manufacturers use custom instructions and USB commands in their USB2.0 drivers, I've seen some of them in the linux kernel (reverse engineered using very expensive sniffers). So the only "clean" solution would be USB2-only, ... unless you can provide some kind of a hardware micro switch on the PCB or so.

Dominik has developed a clever trick, so this is not a concern (Otherwise we could always make it a menu selectable option).

If there's really a working and stable way to get it working via ASIO, I wouldn't bother. I know of some other (not sure if 100% legal) way to get it working without the limitations of ASIO (reduced I/O throughtput).

Yes - I'm sure at least initially the ASIO Driver will be the only option for 192KHz via Windows machines - maybe we can find someone to write a Driver...

If you're really going for a custom hardware implementation, I could test it for you on various linux kernel versions from the last 6 years or so (to simulate various embedded devices / players as well).

I'd very much appreciate that - I'm sure you would be of great help

 

[sq225917]

Im happy to go with Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage
However, I'm looking at mid-September before I can justify the expense though.

You'd be looking at Xmas before John can provide it so don't worry too much..


This seems to be a sensible way forward John. I just wonder how many people whose Mdacs you already have will be prepared to wait rather than take the upgrade Ty/Fusion upgrade they have already ordered. I guess it's an extra 40 days+ onto the bottom line if they all want upgrades now.

 

[JohnW]

I think I'm one of those first 20 because I've paid hificollective for the fusion kits and have it sent to John. I also want to know if the DSD/786Fs is really so popular, indispensable to justify the extra time and effort? Personally I don't mind waiting a bit longer if that means something better, in my mind it's always sound quality rather than new features. Anyway I support this new PCB proposal and thanks John for his efforts.

Well the time and effort is only an extra month - then the DAC's good for many more years It be a shame to pay GBP450+ now only for a year later to feel sorry we did not go for the DSD / 768Fs option..

What ever happens I need to first clear out the current units awaiting upgrade behind me. Once these have been completed I'll turn my attention to the MDAC MK2 PCB (If its decided to go ahead)... As I say I'll upgrade these later to MK2 spec. for the cost of the PCB alone (about GBP120) and transplant the expensive Toy / Fusion resistors

If you have ordered the Toy / Fusion resistors and have yet to send your DAC for upgrade then I'll still upgrade your unit- but suggest you wait for the MK2 MDAC PCB... you will be first on the list

 

[mavwong]

Count me in John, understand ur difficulties, I will be more than willing to join in if the concencious is to go with the USB 2 with DSD/DXD. Its just 1 more month to get the features set that will catapult mdac to compete with those dsd dac available in the market now is more than worth it. And I am sure there will be more than 50 supporters to start it of base on the response so far.

Too bad I already sold off my mdac, else I could have save us300. Buts lets not look back but move forward shall we

 

[EIffel]

While I'm in the list of the happy fews with my MDAC in John's hands, I think the approach proposed makes a lot of sense.

I'd try to limit the number of product variations and would aim for the full monty version given that the base MDAC is already very good.

Hopefully, this limited run project will also provide lessons for the next products in the pipelines, whatever they end up being ;-)

 

[JohnW]

Im happy to go with Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage
However, I'm looking at mid-September before I can justify the expense though.

Very early days nothings been decided yet (accept not to invite anymore units for upgrade) - I need to gather much more information, prices and leadtimes etc then create a proper project plan.

What ever happens - I need to first complete the upgrade of the 20 units I have sitting behind me - then if we do open the order books payment would only be £100 a month (for a total of £450 + Postage) - you can order the optional Toy or Fusion resistor kit once the PCB's have arrived back from the SMD vendor (4-5 months down the line)... I would need the monthly payment for the first units on the list to help finance the development and component sourcing - kinda of a PFM crowd development

 

[amershamman]

Very early days nothings been decided yet (accept not to invite anymore units for upgrade) - I need to gather much more information, prices and leadtimes etc then create a proper project plan.

What ever happens - I need to complete the upgrade of the 20 units I have sitting behind me - then if we do open the order books payment would only be £100 a month (for a total of £450 + Postage) - you can order the optional Toy or Fusion resistor kit once the PCB's have arrived back from the SMD vendor (4-5 months down the line)... I would need the monthly payment for the first units on the list to help finance the development and component sourcing - kinda of a PFM crowd development

That's fine John. Really all worth waiting for. I was on the original first list, so I'm a patient soul anyway. Always good to have something to look forward to!

 

[JohnW]

As far as I understood John this is an option for the pcb design. He either includes it for everyone or not.

Correct its either the MK2 board has DSD / DXD (768fs) or stays as is with the standard 96/24...

I'm leaning more to the DSD / DXD USB2.0 option (even with the greater risk) as we would only regret it later...

 

[fusion5]

Correct its either the MK2 board has DSD / DXD (768fs) or stays as is with the standard 96/24...

I'm leaning more to the DSD / DXD USB2.0 option (even with the greater risk) as we would only regret it later...

This is a unique chance, we should use it

Time to listen to some music via my AVR

 

[jirij]

Correct its either the MK2 board has DSD / DXD (768fs) or stays as is with the standard 96/24...

I'm leaning more to the DSD / DXD USB2.0 option (even with the greater risk) as we would only regret it later...

Please also consider what I wrote earlier,

Also, I'm not sure whether DSD over USB2 is possible using any "standard" way. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital#DSD_over_USB

edit: You might also be able to get more people on board if you describe the L2, Toy/Fusion and "new PCB" upgrades on the wiki - reading such info from the "first listen" threads is quite impossible for anyone except a chosen few.

- if you have a different experience / an idea how to resolve this, please say so. I don't think the default drivers can deal with non-PCM data.

 

[JohnW]

John - very interested in this new proposal as it appears to resolve a lot of the circular oddities of the current approach, as well as moving the entire project forward.

May I enquire how you propose to deal, financially, with those folks who have already paid for, and had their units updated by you?

For clarification, my unit was updated to the original L2 standard and I'll bring it to CZ in about a month when, hopefully, you can replace the four 120Ω resistors with the Vishay ones I'll bring with me!

But in the longer term, count me in for this project as long is the 'offer' is viable for those who have already paid for the Level 2 upgrade.

Current Toy / Fusion / L2 owners need only pay the basic cost of the new PCB - somewhere in the order of £120 + P&P I'll do the Bulk Foil resistor / PCB swap etc for free

 

[JohnW]

Please also consider what I wrote earlier,

- if you have a different experience / an idea how to resolve this, please say so. I don't think the default drivers can deal with non-PCM data.

There is already an unofficial standard - the DSD is buried within the PCM data stream - using the 16LSB's of the 24Bit word... Channel D and others support this "Standard".

We can support any "standard" via a simple firmware update - this is no big problem.

 

[JohnW]

Count me in John, understand ur difficulties, I will be more than willing to join in if the concencious is to go with the USB 2 with DSD/DXD. Its just 1 more month to get the features set that will catapult mdac to compete with those dsd dac available in the market now is more than worth it. And I am sure there will be more than 50 supporters to start it of base on the response so far.

Too bad I already sold off my mdac, else I could have save us300. Buts lets not look back but move forward shall we

We will be able to supply "new" units via Audiolab - at a reduced price... Or maybe easier just to ship you the new MK2 board....

 

[JohnW]

Hi John, does that mean the TDAC is still on at some point? Or would this now replace that plan? Tempted to get one of these, though have set cash aside for the eventual TDAC.

The TDAC will be a development from this board so this would be the first step

The Toy / Fusion units are really VERY VERY good - the MDAC MK2 will be EVEN better... for lessthen half the price of TDAC - its worth a try

 

[moosemeat]

I would only need 50 commitments at GBP100 per month to go ahead and design a new replacement board incorporating the Toy / Fusion upgrades + all the juicy extras such as dual 9018’s (and DSD / 768Fs support if the consensus is to spend the extra GBP50 and month extra hardware development) – it would be a REFERENCE grade DAC (with all the lessons learnt from the current upgrades etc)… any interest or comments?

Hi John,

This sounds awesome and allows M-DAC owners the world over to benefit. Please count me in.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Steven Toy]

The TDAC will be a development from this board so this would be the first step

The Toy / Fusion units are really VERY VERY good - the MDAC MK2 will be EVEN better... for lessthen half the price of TDAC - its worth a try

My upgrade path could be:

Toy+ #1
New board
Fusion

TDAC

 

[fusion5]

Do I get the fusion unit with serial number 1?