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MDAC first listen (part XXIV)

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Due to the continued issues I'm experiencing with MDAC build quality, sound quality variability and our longer term plans to progress forward we are considering changing the direction as to how we handle these MDAC upgrades.

Currently each MDAC upgrade is taking about 4 to 5 days to complete as I'm essentially customising the upgrade for each unit – this is obviously unsustainable, extremely frustrating and not to mention financially unprofitable.

The plan that is now brewing in my mind (I’m putting it out here for feedback) is to offer a whole new MDAC Mainboard that we would manufacture here in Europe thus insuring quality and consistency. To allow us to meet the price targets we would purchase key “expensive” items in Asia – cheaper passive components etc would be purchased locally here in Europe.

As the PCB is built by SMD machine, labour is such a small part of the board cost we could still meet our price targets for the upgrades with a higher quality and more professional product.

To help finance this endeavour I’m thinking upon the lines that say “50” perspective customers send instalments of GBP100 per month – and within 4 months (GBP400) we will be able to ship out upgrade boards (for simple DIY fit) – or I can upgrade units here in CZ as I’m currently doing – being a simple board swap it would be a much quicker process. It would also allow owners outside of Europe to upgrade there unit.

You would be essentially getting a new product with only front panel, PSU and chassis reused from the original MDAC.

I’d go the full hog with the redesigned PCB, not only including the Toy / Fusion upgrades but include Dual pair of ESS9018’s, AV bypass and the potential for an extra say GBP50 and a months extra design effort to add Async USB to 768Fs!! and DSD support etc.

The first 20 or so customers who have paid the Toy / Fusion upgraded MDAC’s can then send them back to me here in CZ once the upgrade PCB is available and I’ll transplant the “Precious” Bulk Foil resistors onto the new MDAC PCB (the PCB will be design for both options) – for the cost price of the new PCB which I'm guessing at around GBP120…

This route has many advantages – not only is it a vastly better product without the restrictions of trying to add the modifications to the existing PCB, you have the DUAL ESS9018’s and the potential of DSD & 786Fs support with each unit tested and QC’ed by myself here in Europe – more importantly we would be helping the local European economy, shifting production back from China.

Just an idea and early days, wondering if there would be interest as the current method of upgrading the PCB is unsustainable in the longterm – while this would be a 4 month plan – so far about 130 people have expressed interest in the upgrade – at 3 to 4 days a unit (hopefully I can speed this up for the remain units here) I’m never going to be able to upgrade all units! While it would add a delay for a few you do get a vastly superior product – and the payments can be spread over 4 months :)

I would only need 50 commitments at GBP100 per month to go ahead and design a new replacement board incorporating the Toy / Fusion upgrades + all the juicy extras such as dual 9018’s (and DSD / 768Fs support if the consensus is to spend the extra GBP50 and month extra hardware development) – it would be a REFERENCE grade DAC (with all the lessons learnt from the current upgrades etc)… any interest or comments?
John,
for the long term - count me in as well. I'm not sure whether to bring home my original MDAC and bring it back to you once the PCBs are available or whether to pay extra GBP120 with the benefit of having the unit ASAP with the current L2+fusion upgrade, I shall decide during the next week (assuming you didn't upgrade my unit so far).

Some points I have on my mind (you don't need to answer here, just ask yourself):
  • While enthusiasm is good, how real is the 4 month plan? Does it include time reserves for when problems show up? Consider "lessons learned" from design time of BDAC/MIMP/.. (not the product itself, just PCB design time). Won't you run out of money before it's done?
  • How real is the cost estimation for the PCB? Won't it get way more expensive? Are there multiple PCB manufacturers (competition) as a backup?
  • What about approach to all the customizations both hardware and software? Will you perform slight alterations to the PCB design to make ie. front 5-pin miniXLR PCB-mountable? Is it worth it?
  • Any QA process to test the PCBs prior to soldering components on them? I know Europe *might* be different, but there can still be a number of badly made PCBs and dicovering that too late might generate more smoke than intended.
  • What about expected sound quality? Are you certain enough that it's going to be better than original MDAC? Won't different components and a different PCB make a negative impact? Sound signature change?
  • What about the new features? Any list? Won't a dynamic list (adding new things on the fly) prolong the design time / add differences between PCBs?
  • Speaking of features - how far are you willing to go? Perhaps a new USB chip (XMOS-based) to eliminate linux/windows usb3 and windows 8 issues and allow 24/192 over USB? What about a hello kitty sticker?
  • ...
  • (more later if you want, I need to catch a bus, heading east today!)
I'm really not trying to scare you, just trying to provide some things to consider, so that the entire process doesn't end up badly for you (designer), us (customers) or both. You know, you have some reputation and history to protect. :) ... No pressure. :) :D
 
John,

As I don't currently have an MDAC (only a CDQ8200) and live in New Zealand, would it be possible to order one of your 'new' MDAC units, with the new motherboard and Toy or Fusion upgrade? I know it will take some time for you to get to, but that's ok. If this would be possible (and you could give me a price) I will put in an order and happily pay 'up front' to assist with your Grand Scheme of things...

Cheers,
Kevin.
 
Hi John

Following closely the thread lately, it seems you re indeed struggling very much with the upgrades - with excellent feedback so far, Congrats! - but you certainly would feel better spending your time on other topics/designs/developments.

Yes indeed, the upgrades have proved much more difficult then I expected - units sound different and some units prove to be a REAL battle to bring them to the Toy / Fusion standard. I'm learning as I upgrade each unit, but then a unit comes along that throws a spanner into the works…

The good news is that with each unit I learn a little more how to improve the MDAC… nothing like get ones hands dirty!

Now, the approach you propose seems very much reasonable, and I feel like you will receive support from this community.

Do you envisage different versions of the upgrade (i.e. "basic": upgrade of the full PCB with dual ESS, improved USB and DSD, "Toy+": basic + Toy components, "Fusion+": basic + Fusion components)?

Could you please get a bit more precise (as far as feasible atm) regarding associated final costs?

If the consensus is to go with the USB2.0 design this will add an extra £50 to the unit cost to cover the month extra hardware development time (Dominik will be working on the software for many more months).

Standard MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) = £450 + Postage.

Toy MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) = £496.98 + Postage.

Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage

The above prices will be £50 less if we decide to go with the current 24/96KHz USB1.1 implementation.

And last point, how long would you estimate design work for the new PCB + validation on your side, before going production?

2 months design time for the (standard 24/96KHz USB1.1 version) or

3 month design time for the USB2.0 DSD / 786Fs version

Then 2 months for testing and first production units

I might be able to reduce the design times... I've indicated what I'd like to believe is worst case...

There is little extra in the price for what would be a stunning new design!
 
John, can you start writing down how many of us have already "signed up" for this new approach? I think we may be 50 rather quickly!

Cheers
 
I'm interested in principle in the new project in the longer term, but I'd like to have some time with my fusion upgrade, which is in the queue, before going further. So I guess I might not be in the first 50. Maybe next year I'd think about it.

It sounds like a good way for you to go, given the amount of work these upgrades currently involve.

- Richard.
 
John - very interested in this new proposal as it appears to resolve a lot of the circular oddities of the current approach, as well as moving the entire project forward.

May I enquire how you propose to deal, financially, with those folks who have already paid for, and had their units updated by you?

For clarification, my unit was updated to the original L2 standard and I'll bring it to CZ in about a month when, hopefully, you can replace the four 120Ω resistors with the Vishay ones I'll bring with me!

But in the longer term, count me in for this project as long is the 'offer' is viable for those who have already paid for the Level 2 upgrade.
 
I'm down for the Fusion update, with resistors already ordered from Hifi collective, and you have my MDAC at the moment, so I presume it's still OK to Fusion my machine. After that, assuming I like what I get back, I am almost certain to go for the dual chip upgrade at a later date.

I need to buy shares in Charcroft, or is it Vishay?

One other comment. Don't people these days use some sort of crowdfunding thing to get these sorts of projects off the ground? I don't know anything about this, but wondered if it might provide a framework whereby you can more easily keep track of who has ordered what, and people can more easily understand what they're being offered.
 
John that seems like a sensible solution for moving forward with Lakewest, the current situation was untenable in the long term as you have to get new products moving that do not require your own time to be consumed for every one. You most profitable use of time is designing.

Crowd sourced funding is also a great idea, it gives you the time, incentive and resource to do what you and Dominik do best.

No doubt you are thinking of offering the Mdac2 pcb complete in a Lakewest case in due course.

Anything you make simply has to have DSD on it to remain competitive even it will always only be a marginal format- you can't be seen to step off the arms race conveyor belt.

I'll gladly sign up, though i still want my Toy unit. I figure that will have more value as a second hand sale to fund my next purchase than it will have in salvaged resistor and chip value. Ie i'd sell that and buy a 2nd hand Mdac to use for the Mdac2 upgrade.

I see these precious few Toy/Fusion units achieving cult status.
 
Yes indeed, the upgrades have proved much more difficult then I expected - units sound different and some units prove to be a REAL battle to bring them to the Toy / Fusion standard. I'm learning as I upgrade each unit, but then a unit can will throw a spanner into the works…

The good news is that with each unit I learn a little more how to improve the MDAC… nothing like get ones hands dirty!



If the consensus is to go with the USB2.0 design this will add an extra £50 to the unit cost to cover the month extra hardware development time (Dominik will be working on the software for many more months).

Standard MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) = £450 + Postage.

Toy MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) = £496.98 + Postage.

Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage

The above prices will be £50 less if we decide to go with the current 24/96KHz USB1.1 implementation.



2 months design time for the (standard 24/96KHz USB1.1 version) or

3 month design time for the USB2.0 DSD / 786Fs version

Then 2 months for testing and first production units

I might be able to reduce the design times... I've indicated what I'd like to believe is worst case...

There is little extra in the price for what would be a stunning new design!

count me in as well John, I like the idea

just can't imagine you doing TOY upgrades for the next 3 years witch seems to be the current situation, and the MPAX, MIMP ect. getting further away

Lots of unknown factors, but what about Audiolab, don't you have a conflict of design "copyright" don't they own the MDAC you made for them?
 
John,
for the long term - count me in as well. I'm not sure whether to bring home my original MDAC and bring it back to you once the PCBs are available or whether to pay extra GBP120 with the benefit of having the unit ASAP with the current L2+fusion upgrade, I shall decide during the next week (assuming you didn't upgrade my unit so far).

OK - At the moment this is really only an idea - I'm keen to see if its of any interest!

Some points I have on my mind (you don't need to answer here, just ask yourself):

While enthusiasm is good, how real is the 4 month plan? Does it include time reserves for when problems show up? Consider "lessons learned" from design time of BDAC/MIMP/.. (not the product itself, just PCB design time). Won't you run out of money before it's done?

I have already various sections of the design from earlier projects - I hope to reduce the design time by "copy and pasting" as much as possible - once the PCB design files have been issued its a question of the production process - I'll be testing each board here in my lab so I don't need to add the extra time for test jigs etc.


How real is the cost estimation for the PCB? Won't it get way more expensive? Are there multiple PCB manufacturers (competition) as a backup?

We plan to buy the "expensive" components from our current suppliers in China (ESS9018's, Connectors, organic capacitors & PCB etc) we already have agreed pricing.

If it looks like there is interest and we can meet our 50Pcs opening order then I will take time to meet with SMD subcontractors here in Czech (I've used one company in the past so I have a working experience with them) - I'll get the vendor to quote on the MDAC board - this will give us a better idea of pricing for the PCB SMT population.


What about approach to all the customizations both hardware and software? Will you perform slight alterations to the PCB design to make ie. front 5-pin miniXLR PCB-mountable? Is it worth it?

I'll add AV Bypass to the PCB itself... its not so easy to add the balanced headphone option - I'll see if I can design the PCB for two version of population (AV Bypass or Balanced headphone output)... we can have the new rear panel manufactured from our current tooling.

Any QA process to test the PCBs prior to soldering components on them? I know Europe *might* be different, but there can still be a number of badly made PCBs and dicovering that too late might generate more smoke than intended.

The bare PCB's will be manufactured in China via our trusted vendor - they manufacture PCB's for medical company's in Switzerland - they are Grade A PCB's.

Ill oversee the SMT and thou hole population of the boards here in Czech, and I personally test each unit.

What about expected sound quality? Are you certain enough that it's going to be better than original MDAC? Won't different components and a different PCB make a negative impact? Sound signature change?

With the latest upgrades Toy+ and Fusion I've had to replace EVERY passive component in the analogue stage to insure constancy... I'll use these same components for the MDAC2 boards.

What about the new features? Any list? Won't a dynamic list (adding new things on the fly) prolong the design time / add differences between PCBs?

Only two new features:- built in passive AV Bypass and if agreed by consensus then to go with USB2.0 DSD / 768Fs.. Keeping it simple!

Speaking of features - how far are you willing to go? Perhaps a new USB chip (XMOS-based) to eliminate linux/windows usb3 and windows 8 issues and allow 24/192 over USB?

If its decided to go the USB2.0 / 768Fs we will use our own solution - I'LL NEVER touch XMOS its terrible on the hardware side - and the supplied drivers for windows are very unstable!

We will support the USB2.0 standard - you will be OK with Linux and Mac as they can support USB192 - not sure what we will do for a 192KHz+ driver for Windows users yet (there is an open source Asio driver we can use) - although 96/24 will work without drivers.

I'm really not trying to scare you, just trying to provide some things to consider, so that the entire process doesn't end up badly for you (designer), us (customers) or both. You know, you have some reputation and history to protect. :) ... No pressure. :) :D

Good questions, I'm just fielding the possibility and trying to gauge interest if I'm to commit to the project - otherwise I'm not sure how to manage the Qty. of MDAC upgrades while insuring each unit meets the quality requirement....
 
Im happy to go with Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage
However, I'm looking at mid-September before I can justify the expense though.
 
Hi John, I would like to be added to the list for Toy upgrades. Please let me know when and how to pay the first installment. Thanks
 
Hi john .I would be happy to go for the full monty upgrades and fund as needed.I'm on the list for tdac and original L2 upgrade list. thanks
 
John i'd be interested in the full fat fusion new board ie including the usb 2 functionality;

Fusion MDAC2 USB 2.0 (786Fs & DSD support) £786.24 + Postage

Looking forward to it already :D

I also tried to drop you an IM to pick up on something else - but you have a full inbox. Could you make some space pls.

rt
 
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