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MDAC first listen (part XXIV)

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As for the players - I believe any "bit perfect" player should be capable of "playing" PCM-encoded DSD data. It's still just PCM bitstream to the player / driver / streamer hardware, if I understand it correctly. Or is there some "pure DSD" non-PCM-encoded format, playable via proprietary drivers?

AFAIK DSD is the first digital translation of audio i.e closest to the analogue master. Before PCM is involved.

See. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital

The new way to do it is encoding the DSD bitstream inside PCM packets i.e. DoP http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard so no info lost converting DSD to PCM (which does not get so good reviews). This requires special drivers as supported in the list of players I posted e.g. foobar2000.

I believe I was misunderstood - I did not refer to PCM as "audio bitstream", but rather as a "bit stream carrier / envelope", containing in fact non-playable (by normal DACs) data, which a special kind of DAC could recognize and interpret as DSD, without any PCM processing of the actual "sound bitstream". Kind of like sending a PCM-encoded ZIP file or anything else.

That's the impression I got from some post by JohnW earlier in this thread and this should - in theory - work with any player and any driver that's able to send the actual bitstream unmodified.

Am I wrong? Is it impossible to store and replay 100% exact binary copy of any data using PCM? How the "bitperfect test" does it? Accounting for the processing caused by PCM?

It would appear that I'm not completely wrong, the dop-open-standard link actually says
As seen above the Windows platform basically offers a solution with the ASIO driver and the raw data format supported by USB Audio 2.0. Not as ideal as having a dedicated DSD path via USB, but this is safe and straightforward. Since the Apple OS only allows a PCM path we have to find a way to put DSD audio data into PCM frames that then get sent via the native USB driver.
 
As an aside... Bought the wailin' jenny's on John's recommendation (love exploring new music that I have never heard of) and I love it... Thanks for the suggestion!
 
will DSD256 and DSD512 be supported aswell with the upgraded mainboard, or is it just up to 128Fs?

honestly i doubt even 24bit/192khz isn't 100% transparent, but it is good to having the ability to stream DSD and ultra high resolution PCM without downconvertion.
 
will DSD256 and DSD512 be supported aswell with the upgraded mainboard, or is it just up to 128Fs?

honestly i doubt even 24bit/192khz isn't 100% transparent, but it is good to having the ability to stream DSD and ultra high resolution PCM without downconvertion.

It isn't huge, but there is a difference. I'm quite looking forward for the MDAC contigent to get their upgrades and finally try DSD. I'm personally addicted where I can source such materials (not often enough!), and I'm currently using a Mytek DSD unit to get my fix. DSD seems to have more good analogue qualities.
 
Have things changed again? What's all this talk of chassis changes?

Keep up, that was an hour ago. The latest thing is that we are all going to transcend to a non-physical existence and contemplate the beauty of the universe whilst replaying bit perfect memories of our favourite music.

Iain M. Banks, thanks for all the great reads and RIP in your transcended state.
 
Hi John,
some days off pfm and things going on rapidly...
Originally on the queue for L2 upgrade I'm going for a new silver mdac2 unit with toy resistors. Just added wikkii...

Regards,
jansen
 
Due to the continued issues I'm experiencing with MDAC build quality, sound quality variability and our longer term plans to progress forward we are considering changing the direction as to how we handle these MDAC upgrades.

Currently each MDAC upgrade is taking about 4 to 5 days to complete as I'm essentially customising the upgrade for each unit – this is obviously unsustainable, extremely frustrating and not to mention financially unprofitable.

The plan that is now brewing in my mind (I’m putting it out here for feedback) is to offer a whole new MDAC Mainboard that we would manufacture here in Europe thus insuring quality and consistency. To allow us to meet the price targets we would purchase key “expensive” items in Asia – cheaper passive components etc would be purchased locally here in Europe.

As the PCB is built by SMD machine, labour is such a small part of the board cost we could still meet our price targets for the upgrades with a higher quality and more professional product.

To help finance this endeavour I’m thinking upon the lines that say “50” perspective customers send instalments of GBP100 per month – and within 4 months (GBP400) we will be able to ship out upgrade boards (for simple DIY fit) – or I can upgrade units here in CZ as I’m currently doing – being a simple board swap it would be a much quicker process. It would also allow owners outside of Europe to upgrade there unit.

You would be essentially getting a new product with only front panel, PSU and chassis reused from the original MDAC.

I’d go the full hog with the redesigned PCB, not only including the Toy / Fusion upgrades but include Dual pair of ESS9018’s, AV bypass and the potential for an extra say GBP50 and a months extra design effort to add Async USB to 768Fs!! and DSD support etc.

The first 20 or so customers who have paid the Toy / Fusion upgraded MDAC’s can then send them back to me here in CZ once the upgrade PCB is available and I’ll transplant the “Precious” Bulk Foil resistors onto the new MDAC PCB (the PCB will be design for both options) – for the cost price of the new PCB which I'm guessing at around GBP120…

This route has many advantages – not only is it a vastly better product without the restrictions of trying to add the modifications to the existing PCB, you have the DUAL ESS9018’s and the potential of DSD & 786Fs support with each unit tested and QC’ed by myself here in Europe – more importantly we would be helping the local European economy, shifting production back from China.

Just an idea and early days, wondering if there would be interest as the current method of upgrading the PCB is unsustainable in the longterm – while this would be a 4 month plan – so far about 130 people have expressed interest in the upgrade – at 3 to 4 days a unit (hopefully I can speed this up for the remain units here) I’m never going to be able to upgrade all units! While it would add a delay for a few you do get a vastly superior product – and the payments can be spread over 4 months :)

I would only need 50 commitments at GBP100 per month to go ahead and design a new replacement board incorporating the Toy / Fusion upgrades + all the juicy extras such as dual 9018’s (and DSD / 768Fs support if the consensus is to spend the extra GBP50 and month extra hardware development) – it would be a REFERENCE grade DAC (with all the lessons learnt from the current upgrades etc)… any interest or comments?

Yes the basic version (without the Toy/ Fusion resistor package) is around the same cost (£400 or £450 depending if its decided to go with the USB 24/96 of the current MDAC or the DSD/768Fs USB 2 option) + the extra if you wanted the fusion resistors fitted. To facilitate the development and component purchasing etc the payments would be spread over the 4 to 5 months...

I’d personally be a lot happier as I can design a much MUCH better product and move forwards, the time spent on the upgrades is not sustainable in the longterm – I’m very keen to use dual ESS9018’s and remove other restrictions of the MDAC design – but cannot afford to do this without support – the first 2 to 3 months would be spent redesigning the PCB, the final 2 months production and testing…

The other option is to continue with the upgrades - but I'll be very glad after these first 20 units have been shipped - and I'm not sure if it makes sense to continue this route...

At last. I've been waiting a long time for this. This is the way I'd been hoping you'd go for several years.

I've added myself to the wiki - I want one.

John, your time is much better spent - to the benefit of everyone, including yourself and Renata - designing, or as required overseeing the production of kit, rather than hand tweaking yourself. No more manual modifications; go for a production processes.

I'll go with whatever spec you decide. USB2 would be nice, but not essential; and I'd probably go for the 'Toy' level of tweak.

I suspect this pregnancy will last longer than the normal human gestation period, but I'd far rather you were spending your time this way

I get back from a long weekend in Glastonbury and look what's happened.

I'm really looking forward to the Dual 9018's!!!
So am I - again, I've been wanting these for some time

Chris

(family circumstances have kept me away from the board, apart from the occasional peek, for several months, but this is well worth replying to. Caught up with the threads a few weeks ago - temporarily distracted by Candy Dulfer along the way..)
 
I think John missed my last post.
Not sure if I am considered to be one of the 20 (but I was asked to send my unit to you), I didnt send my unit in because I wanted a new unit to be upgraded.

With the latest developement I am prepared to take one (actually two, since I wont even "steal" time for Toy) for the team and postpone my upgrade until the new pcb is completed.

I have already ordered resistors to be delivered to you John. Could you keep them until pcb is finished?
 
I forgot to mention that I have a suggestion for a name of the new product: M²-DAC
Or maybe M-DAC²
 
I am not in the MK2 list, but a name suggestion: W-DAC. W is kinda M upside down and W for Westlake, for meeting Westlake quality requirements and not being a copycat product. Anyways, freezing the number "2" this soon is not ideal :).
 
I also suggest to keep standard gain, non adjustable. Actually the gain issue most pp have is their power amp gain is just too high, like 29 to 31db.
 
The replacement chassis option interests me as well... My sovereign dc mdac can then go upstairs to the second system.. :)

Hallo John

My understanding is that with M2DAC PCB comes also a new front and back cover.
You also said that you have the option to get new MDAC chassis with faulty pcb.
What is the price for these new chassis? I didn't need a second psu.

As I said I am also interested in the upcoming MPAX.
After completing M2DAC + MPAX I could sell my regular mdac. but I need a complete box ;-)

regads
f.s.
 
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