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MDAC First Listen (part 00100111)

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ti33er said:
The newer NC1200 are better than the NC400 so it's not like they are 'perfect' amplifiers as originally claimed.

Thanks

Paul
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This is a ridiculous comparison you can only buy nc1200 in commercial products which means >£10,000. You can build a pair of nc400 for £1200.

I think they are pretty much perfect at that price point. They bettered the £5000 par they substituted in my system.
 
Rune said:
This is a ridiculous comparison you can only buy nc1200 in commercial products which means >£10,000. You can build a pair of nc400 for £1200.

I think they are pretty much perfect at that price point. They bettered the £5000 par they substituted in my system.
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Rune Sir, do you run with nC400 now?

My statement was more about the description of a 'perfect' amplifier, yet the updated nC1200 has yielded better results by just about everyone that has experienced both (irrespective of price) also dubious
mods some people claim elevates the nc400 performance yet again! I bet the nc1200 module itself doesn't cost much more than the nc400 in reality

What did you replace out of interest? :)

Thanks

Ps. I may hold out if John will make matching cheaper amps to the MDAC2 full width chassis ;-)
 
I guess it depends on the speakers and the power requirements. The amp designer says they sound pretty much the same if the power is not a factor. It would be great tho if nc1200 sounded much better. I can't realise how tho...nc400 is already so damn good. Maybe, when i listen to Rihanna, she will actually spawn out my projector screen and give me a lap dance :). Then it would definitely be better.
 
JohnW said:
Jem,

Save your money - guess what I'm planning for you!!!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Lecson.JPG

I have recently sourced a pair of the shorter AP1's (and a single taller AP3) and was toying with the idea of designing a 1 off pair of simple ClassA VFET Monoblocks into the AP1 chassis....

The amps are so old that rather then rebuilding them I might as well redesigned them (the original circuits are rather flaky).... they are screaming out for low power ClassA VFET Monoblock design :) .... Problem is that I don't see them working in your system, you need real power = the full on VFET amps.

A loose idea I'm toying with is that once I've completed the MDAC2 / VFET amp projects is to open the tooling based upon the extrusion profile and design modern day version :) Not VFET based but a cheaper Monoblock amplifier for MDAC2 owners :)

I'll see how close I can make these "smaller" and more conventional amps sound to the bigger VFET reference design :) They will use circuit elements of the VFET amplifiers - just without the VFET's and Tubes - but maybe still current-dumping.... who knows still plenty of water to flow under the bridge until I can start working on such a design :)

I'll drag the larger AP3 out with me to HK and ask a friend whose an industrial designer to recreate the drawings for the new extrusion profile - and maybe we will CNC a more solid and practical base with IEC mains / XLR and speaker binding posts.

A project for next year.....!
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This is just cruel! I can see a set of those sat next to my ML Summits - but the Summits don't really need huge power (the bass bins have their own power amp) they just need current to drive the <1ohm HF impedance. My 60w valve amp drives them to ear splitting levels. But If I could have my VFETs in a Lecson-alike case I'd be a very happy person!
 
ti33er said:
Rune Sir, do you run with nC400 now?

My statement was more about the description of a 'perfect' amplifier, yet the updated nC1200 has yielded better results by just about everyone that has experienced both (irrespective of price) also dubious
mods some people claim elevates the nc400 performance yet again! I bet the nc1200 module itself doesn't cost much more than the nc400 in reality

What did you replace out of interest? :)

Thanks

Ps. I may hold out if John will make matching cheaper amps to the MDAC2 full width chassis ;-)
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Yes I run 4xnCores with my Dali Epicon 8. They substituted Cyrus X300 monoblocks.
Even 2 nCore monoblocks was better especialy due to the extra power they are able to deliver and the noice floor is much lower.
The talk about nc1200 vs nc400 is pure academic because only nc400 is available for DIY.
I have ordered two pair of VFET to substitute the two pair of nCores :cool:
 
JemHayward said:
This is just cruel! I can see a set of those sat next to my ML Summits - but the Summits don't really need huge power (the bass bins have their own power amp) they just need current to drive the <1ohm HF impedance. My 60w valve amp drives them to ear splitting levels. But If I could have my VFETs in a Lecson-alike case I'd be a very happy person!
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Yes I've pondered whether the Vfets are overkill for my Summits because of the powered subs ...
 
PhilCTTE said:
Yes I've pondered whether the Vfets are overkill for my Summits because of the powered subs ...
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That's why I hesitated, because my EAR890 is sublime, and its power is more than adequate, but I see the VFET as being as much about finesse as it is about power.
 
"The minimum Vishay resistor complement will be x8 resistors and then x24 and upwards for the ""premium" build...."
This is what John said.
-------------------
How much price difference between x8 / x24 / x48 vishay resistors? It would be nice to know.
Kind regards, Peter
 
I don't think anyone including Bruno has ever asserted the ncores are perfect. However I'd be willing to wager that they are closer to be being "perfect" than any other amplifiers you've heard. I'm getting the VFETS and John knows that the bar is very high &#55357;&#56832;
 
With the nc400s Bruno stated he was designing an amplifier with nothing taken away, and nothing added. And that he could if he wanted tune it for subjective performance, but that wasn't his objective.

The nc1200s in their raw (OEM) format don't have an input buffer stage. That's down to the individual OEMs to implement/tune as they wish for their desired subjective performance.

Bruno also stated that he spent a lot of time with the nc modules designing for something which had no audible signature - he spent a lot of time audibly comparing the input and output signals trying to remove any audible signature whatsoever

As I understand it, every time he "tuned" to remove audible signature he did it by further improving the theoretical and measured performance.

So, again as I understand it, the nc1200 implementations don't sound "better" but they may well sound different.

The really impressive thing about the Westlake VFETS (and the mdac2 output stage) is that everything that John has described about the development process has also been about improving the theoretical and measured performance
(With possibly the exception of tweaking the phase margin - haven't fully got my head around that one yet)
 
Oh well, this thread takes many turns, nice ... D vs AB class.

Having experience from both (ex nCore user) I seem to conclude with Michael Fremer's experience. There are many things to like with D-class amps (nCores in my case) and some things not to depending on your taste.

As MF writes in his very positive review of the Bel Canto Design Black (nCore based) amp -

" But I'll stick with "the higher in frequency the music goes, the more problems there are." Bel Canto apparently solves such problems withholding the upper octaves—or at least, that's how it sounded. No doubt the measured response will be flat.
Air and space were in short supply, as was generous or even perceptible instrumental decay "

Air, decay and space is essential in music for my ears, taste varies obviously ...
 
LarsS said:
Air, decay and space is essential in music for my ears, taste varies obviously ...
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OH 110% agree with you!!!! I've not heard the NCD - but I've heard the modified UCD's (they might have been early NCore prototypes in Bruno system) and they completely compressed the sound stage.
 
When compared with other amps I haven't yet found the nc's lacking. I've mostly found they let through whatever they're being fed with

So air, decay and space (if lacking) have to come from the upstream (or downstream) components. I've heard plenty of air decay and space dependent on the upstream components.

And I've not yet heard them make something sound "worse". I've not heard them take anything away from the other components.

Whether this is right way for amplifiers to behave or not is, of course, open to further discussion :)
 
JohnW said:
OH 110% agree with you!!!! I've not heard the NCD - but I've heard the modified UCD's (they might have been early NCore prototypes in Bruno system) and they completely compressed the sound stage.
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I have to ask, in your opinion John would the cheaper amps you might design, not compress the sound stage?

Thanks in advance

Paul
 
ChrisPa
I totally agree with you. And John, the UCDs and Ncores are in different leagues I promise you.
 
John, did you get my email from ~3 weeks ago? .. I didn't receive any mails from you or Renata.

Thanks.

(PS: I would be really interested in the scaled down version of your current dumping amps.)
 
JohnW said:
OH 110% agree with you!!!! I've not heard the NCD - but I've heard the modified UCD's (they might have been early NCore prototypes in Bruno system) and they completely compressed the sound stage.
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I can tell you that is not the case with nCore in my experience. In fact, i recently bought Marten Bird 2 speakers. With those speakers, you can easily tell if the amp has compressed sound stage or not. The speakers are about big, live-like and airy sound stage.

I even tried another AB based amp, which had had very good reviews and near perfect measurement results but that amp sounded like it had compressed sound stage. I had to switch back to nCore and there has not been problems with sound stages or lack of air.
 
jirij said:
John, did you get my email from ~3 weeks ago? .. I didn't receive any mails from you or Renata.

Thanks.

(PS: I would be really interested in the scaled down version of your current dumping amps.)
Click to expand...

Jiri,

Forgive me, I've been snowed under getting ready for my trip to HK... I 've sent you an Email.
 
JemHayward said:
That's why I hesitated, because my EAR890 is sublime, and its power is more than adequate, but I see the VFET as being as much about finesse as it is about power.
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Yes, the VFETs are about finesse + able to deliver very high peak currents especially useful to drive ESL Panels.

The problem with a smaller Amplifier is always going to be the ability to proved high peak currents.
 
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