MDAC First Listen (part 00100111)

[fusion5]

Hi John

The likely cost for the addition of the x8/x24+ Vishay resistors should be fairly straight forward to decide. However, as to what, if any, audio benefit it brings can only be determined once some units have been built and preferably 'blind' tested? What is the plan with respect to the inclusion or not of any of the Vishay resistor complements with respect to evaluation before individuals have to commit to the option?

IIRC all units will come with the basic 8-resistor package.

Personally, I'll order the fusion option for all my units.

 

[JohnW]

IIRC all units will come with the basic 8-resistor package

It depends if we can meet the promised budget - otherwise they will be the first things to go on and "BOM cost down" due to there cost....

 

[ti33er]

It depends if we can meet the promised budget - otherwise they will be the first things to go on and "BOM cost down" due to there cost....

Hi John

I am assuming the Z-FOIL Resistors will still be an option regardless for those who want them and optimal configurations would still be assessed, irrespective of cost?

Thanks for all the good work

 

[JohnW]

Hi John

I am assuming the Z-FOIL Resistors will still be an option regardless for those who want them and optimal configurations would still be assessed, irrespective of cost?

Thanks for all the good work

Yes - they will always be an option, the PCB has dual footprints for the SMD MELF types or the Vishay ZFoils.

 

[JohnW]

Hi John,
I've got a heap of SACDs that have both a stereo and a 5.1 multi-channel layer. Would the multi-channel layer not be using DSD then ?

e.g.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dark-Side-Moon-40th-Anniversary/dp/B00008CLOA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435744685&sr=8-1&keywords=pink+floyd+sacd

"Product Description
The Super Audio CD (SACD) features two disc layers. One layer contains a standard version of the album that works on any CD player. The other layer includes high-resolution stereo and a 5.1 surround version of the recording that works on SACD-compatible DVD players and home theatre systems. Both layers employ SACD's Direct Stream Digital (DSD) encoding process that samples the music 64 times faster than CD for unprecedented fidelity."

Hi Tim,

Thats good news , I knew SACD could support multichannel DSD streams, but I was not aware that there was any content available - good news for our oppo digital extraction card

 

[Sibbers]

I'm assuming that with an increase in use of the vishay foil resistors that the effect diminishes as you go? Being that they reduce noise the first in a pathway or used wherever a reduction in noise is needed are the most effective?

Excuse my loose understanding, but I'm just try to get an idea of where the bang for buck rule applies to a 'statement DAC' which is really what I'm after. Kinda like the idea of not ever needing to buy another DAC because this is the one.

 

[JohnW]

I'm assuming that with an increase in use of the vishay foil resistors that the effect diminishes as you go?

Yes, I guess you could say this is correct - the most import positions are the x8 Resistors I mentioned earlier, but I'm sure the X24 combination will still bring further improvement, maybe beyond this brings less benefit.

MDAC2 will already be in a different league to the MDAC1 so don't worry too much about the x24 resistor package.... hopefully I'll not change my mind once I've have a chance to listen to the Vishay combinations.

My problem is that I find it hard to compromise - once I heard the full Fusion MDAC it was hard to listen to the original MDAC. OK, I spoil easy

Being that they reduce noise the first in a pathway or used wherever a reduction in noise is needed are the most effective?

I'm not really sure why the Vishay sound so good - I wish they didn't as they are so expensive, and as an engineer it upsets me that a simple passive component effects the sound quality... it really complicates my life!

 

[Reenberg]

it really complicates my life!

Well at least it get's your mind off the dogs .


But yes it's strange that those flat bastards sounds so dam good ( I use them in my NTD1, cost a fortune, sounds superb) But the again, it's the same with whiskey

 

[Rosewind]

Hi John.

The green Danish winter (cold April) has been transformed into a nice and warm summer with a slight breeze. This means that I am out in the light and I have given my MDAC2 - VFet - TDac plans an overhaul.

System 1 (TDac + VFet monos) - no analogue inputs required:
4 digital in:
(1) usb (computer playback)
(2) optical spdif (TV sound)
(3) cd/DVD player coax cable
(4) extra (TV box / satellite / or ...)
- possibly with a cd slot if available -

System 2 (MDac2 + my own setup)
3 x analogue in required: phono stage / tape deck / tuner
1 digital in required (computer)

So I will change my order as I have no need for only one analogue in - so no L3 for me, please:

MDAC2 L2 - but as good SQ as it comes with regard to Vishay etc (unless the price doubles of course)
VFet mono blocks
TDac
(MAmp monos, perhaps I will be interested in this also)

Do I need to write you an email because of this, John?

I will change the Wiki to reflect the downgrade to L2 (but with almost all the SQ bells and whistles)

Kind regards,
Peter

 

[JemHayward]

If we look at the MDAC2 as JohnW making the best DAC available, then having the better resistors as an add-on seems slightly illogical. I was wondering if John should offer the MDAC2-L3 as the ultimate without any compromises, using Vishays where needed, and then offer the MDAC-L2 as the budget version, without the extra facilities and without the ultimate components as standard, then maybe an upgrade pack for MDAC2-L2 for those who cannot stretch to L3. I'd hate to have to make the decision about the resistors - I'd rather just be told "this is the best and it costs £" (I may regret this when the final bill arrives!).

 

[Steven Toy]

If we look at the MDAC2 as JohnW making the best DAC available, then having the better resistors as an add-on seems slightly illogical. I was wondering if John should offer the MDAC2-L3 as the ultimate without any compromises, using Vishays where needed, and then offer the MDAC-L2 as the budget version, without the extra facilities and without the ultimate components as standard, then maybe an upgrade pack for MDAC2-L2 for those who cannot stretch to L3. I'd hate to have to make the decision about the resistors - I'd rather just be told "this is the best and it costs £" (I may regret this when the final bill arrives!).

I disagree. The L3 has more facilities than the L2 that's all. As an L2 customer I want maximum SQ but without the fripperies of the L3.

The extra vishays should be a bolt-on option for both L2 and L3.

I wish Hyundai would sell me a mid-spec car with the engine from the top spec model. The difference in price if it was just down to engine power and brakes/drive train to match would be about £500. To get the higher-powered engine I have to pay £4K more and get all the bells and whistles that I don't need by choosing the top spec car.

 

[moosemeat]

If we look at the MDAC2 as JohnW making the best DAC available, then having the better resistors as an add-on seems slightly illogical.

Everyone has their financial limitations; your preference could make L3 unaffordable for some who have signed up for it.

What's more, from what I remember of discussions around the Toy and Fusion MDAC mods, they had quite different sound signatures, hence to keep them optional makes sense in my opinion.

 

[JemHayward]

Everyone has their financial limitations; your preference could make L3 unaffordable for some who have signed up for it.

What's more, from what I remember of discussions around the Toy and Fusion MDAC mods, they had quite different sound signatures, hence to keep them optional makes sense in my opinion.

Good point, but I'm the sort who could starve to death in a restaurant if the menu is too long... and we've all had quite a long time to save up... but I do see the point

 

[Sibbers]

I see both sides of the argument but I am reassured that John W is spoiled enough to not want to allow too much of a compromise. I prefer to buy only once if I can, and cutting costs normally result in more expense for me as I end up buying twice.

I imagine I'll end up going for whatever L2 bolt on there are for the sake of ultimate SQ following the same approach as Steven Toy mentioned.

 

[JohnW]

Jem,

Save your money - guess what I'm planning for you!!!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86116171/Lecson.JPG

I have recently sourced a pair of the shorter AP1's (and a single taller AP3) and was toying with the idea of designing a 1 off pair of simple ClassA VFET Monoblocks into the AP1 chassis....

The amps are so old that rather then rebuilding them I might as well redesigned them (the original circuits are rather flaky).... they are screaming out for low power ClassA VFET Monoblock design .... Problem is that I don't see them working in your system, you need real power = the full on VFET amps.

A loose idea I'm toying with is that once I've completed the MDAC2 / VFET amp projects is to open the tooling based upon the extrusion profile and design modern day version Not VFET based but a cheaper Monoblock amplifier for MDAC2 owners

I'll see how close I can make these "smaller" and more conventional amps sound to the bigger VFET reference design They will use circuit elements of the VFET amplifiers - just without the VFET's and Tubes - but maybe still current-dumping.... who knows still plenty of water to flow under the bridge until I can start working on such a design

I'll drag the larger AP3 out with me to HK and ask a friend whose an industrial designer to recreate the drawings for the new extrusion profile - and maybe we will CNC a more solid and practical base with IEC mains / XLR and speaker binding posts.

A project for next year.....!

 

[JohnW]

John W is spoiled enough to not want to allow too much of a compromise.

I tell that to Renata everyday

 

[fusion5]

Not VFET based but a cheaper Monoblock amplifier for MDAC2 owners

 

[fred sonnen]

......

I'll see how close I can make these "smaller" and more conventional amps sound to the bigger VFET reference design They will use circuit elements of the VFET amplifiers - just without the VFET's and Tubes - but maybe still current-dumping.... who knows still plenty of water to flow under the bridge until I can start working on such a design

A project for next year.....!

Great news
But perhaps an amp just without the VETS but with Tubes....?
Starting next Year and finishing 2017. ;-)

Regards
F.S.

 

[ti33er]

Hi John

Regarding this statement from you "A loose idea I'm toying with is that once I've completed the MDAC2 / VFET amp projects is to open the tooling based upon the extrusion profile and design modern day version Not VFET based but a cheaper Monoblock amplifier for MDAC2 owners

I'll see how close I can make these "smaller" and more conventional amps sound to the bigger VFET reference design They will use circuit elements of the VFET amplifiers - just without the VFET's and Tubes - but maybe still current-dumping.... who knows still plenty of water to flow under the bridge until I can start working on such a design"

How much cheaper are these likely to be? I have been seriously considering building a pair of nCores NC400 (about £1300 a pair) which I could afford after selling all my myriad of Tag amps. Would these Tube (look-a-like-VFET) versions be similar or better performing, simply speculating for now? The newer NC1200 are better than the NC400 so it's not like they are 'perfect' amplifiers as originally claimed.

Thanks

Paul

 

[ChrisPa]

The newer NC1200 are better than the NC400

Maybe. Maybe not