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MDAC First Listen (part 00011110)

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John, depending on what you're thinking of for these boards, I'd be very interested in creating a pair of mono blocks based on them. Compare with my nc400s :) (into ML Ascents)

Chris,

Yes, its plausible - It would also give us feedback compared to the nc400 (are they the original UCD's - or the later design)?

I listened to the original UCD400 - and apart from there Bass control I was not impressed - in fact I built up 4 amplifiers for a friend in Hong Kong, when we compared them to a simple ClasAB design he was so disappointed with the sound quality that he did not bother to take the amplifiers home so I still have them somewhere if you need a module or two (UDC400)...

With the UCD400 the Bass was impressive but they had a very odd sound field... lacking L/R soundstage...

Did not know you had ML Ascents :) Once I've got the new lab built and the amps then I'm so looking forward to getting my ML back into operation...
 
As requested. Taken from my phone, hope it helps

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Phil,

Well trying to judge via the pictures and I cannot see any sign of the Balanced input transformers... not sure where to look and the picture quality is not great, but at first sight it looks like you don't have the transformers fitted (a good thing)...

Can you solder? - if so I can forward modification to rewire your XLR leads, to see if it improves (or possibly worsens) the SQ.
 
If a set of boards could be available rather than a cased product count me in.. My amps are housed in the speakers we made.. We made up plates for the back with a heatsink on it and a switch on circuit.. Easy enough to make another plate and have a play.


Hackernap /Ergo 9 by mrphil42, on Flickr

Hi Sam,

No problem, they will just need symmetrical AC input about 30Vac... not sure on the exact requirements yet... I'll get onto the Amps once I've proofed the MDAC2 analogue board (MDAC1.5) - the MDAC2 shares much in common with its analogue stage topology and the Amp design.

Nice work there with your speakers - you have been having fun :)
 
Johan,

Oh yes - so the NC400 are based on the multi-order modulator - I've not heard these yet :) (although Bruno did demonstrate a "new design" at his home a few years back... these might have been development NC's).

Yes - the UCD180 is basically the same as the UCD400 apart from the UCD's higher power level so I'd expect very little difference in SQ...
 
Ask Bruno to send you a pair to try? Would be interested in your thoughts. I've got a pair and removed the gain resistor to bring them down to 13db~ gain, ideal for reducing digital attenuation when driven directly.
 
They're the latest nCore not the older UCD. Maybe when the MDAC2 boards are available I should bring them to CZ and let you have a listen.

No problem with the soundstage when using them with the MLs :)

I think the quality of the UCDs does depend on whether you're using the HG and HXR versions, so it may depend on which version of the modules you used

I've been steadily working my way up through the MLs. I don't have room for full range electrostatics (there was a lovely pair of stacked ESL57s being driven by nCores at the Scalford show the other weekend), so the ML hybrids are a sensible compromise. I've only recently got the Ascents - since the end of Jan. For the previous 10 months I've been running a pair of ML Aerius - bought as a relative bargain to see if I, my listening room and my wife could live with hybrid electrostatics. Yes, they gave me what I was looking for from electrostatics. My son's liked them so much he's taking them off me for his system

The Ascents are more of the same. Clearer, cleaner, what you expect from electrostatics. Less socially acceptable than the Aeriuses were as they are now the same height as my wife. I have some room issues with bass resonances, but that's a problem with the room and where I've got the speakers positioned and not the speakers per se. The nCores are monoblocks, one behind each speaker with 6m balanced cables running to them.

Overall my objective is to create active hybrid electrostatics, with DSP crossover. The vehicle for this will either be these Ascents, or maybe some Summits. The Summits are more slender, already have built in 2 x 200W bass amps per speaker (2x bass drivers per speaker) and use phase control of the 2 bass units to try to provide a smoother transistion between the dipole treble/mid and the omniderecitonal bass.

Taking these active is the reason why in the past I've asked you about synchronising the volume control beween more than 1 MDAC.
 
Phil,

Well trying to judge via the pictures and I cannot see any sign of the Balanced input transformers... not sure where to look and the picture quality is not great, but at first sight it looks like you don't have the transformers fitted (a good thing)...

Can you solder? - if so I can forward modification to rewire your XLR leads, to see if it improves (or possibly worsens) the SQ.

Yea will give it a go.

I don,t mind waiting for you to fully understand the amp prototyping to see if there are other improvements to be had.

If and this is obviously a big if, you do issue diy mods for these then I would like to purchase a board for my current quad and match it for possible bi amping ?

Happy to wait until mdac2 work is out the way.

Kind regards
 
Oh yes - so the NC400 are based on the multi-order modulator - I've not heard these yet :) (although Bruno did demonstrate a "new design" at his home a few years back... these might have been development NC's).

I have a set of NC400's and can confirm that they are very very good.
 
It would be the MIMP / MAMP Circuit housed in the Quad chassis... I just like the thin profile of the Quad 240 :)

Once we have confidence in the circuit topology then we can consider manufacturing MIMP / MAMP chassis.

I'd definitely go for that.
Can they be stacked without any fear of overheating? I'm thinking that this could possibly end up replacing my existing multichannel Audiolab 8000X7 without the need for extra shelf pace.
 
Hi John. Could the MDAC2 have a standby mode while idle? I switch the MDAC on & off as needed, because it runs quite warm. I choose the 30 minute warm-up than keep it on 24/7.
 
A question regarding the new MDAC2's features. Can it bypass surround sound (DTS, dolby digital) via optical connections (or other) to a home theater amplifier like the MDAC can?
 
Johan,

Oh yes - so the NC400 are based on the multi-order modulator - I've not heard these yet :) (although Bruno did demonstrate a "new design" at his home a few years back... these might have been development NC's).

Yes - the UCD180 is basically the same as the UCD400 apart from the UCD's higher power level so I'd expect very little difference in SQ...

John
The nc400 modules are in a different league to the UCD amps. I've said this before but I think they represent the best SQ to price ratio I've heard for any hi fi component. They are the most neutral / natural sounding amps I've ever heard. If your MIMP / MAMP amps can beat them on SQ then that will be an extraordinary achievement. I sincerely hope you can pull it off.
Ian
 
John
The nc400 modules are in a different league to the UCD amps. I've said this before but I think they represent the best SQ to price ratio I've heard for any hi fi component. They are the most neutral / natural sounding amps I've ever heard. If your MIMP / MAMP amps can beat them on SQ then that will be an extraordinary achievement. I sincerely hope you can pull it off.
Ian

Ian,

I'll look forward to spending time with ChrisPa and his NC400's - hopefully Chris can spend a few days here giving us time to get used to the system and meaningful listening sessions.

I'll reserve comments until we listen :)
 
A question regarding the new MDAC2's features. Can it bypass surround sound (DTS, dolby digital) via optical connections (or other) to a home theater amplifier like the MDAC can?

Yes - we will support DTS / AC3 etc passthough on the MDAC2.
 
Hi John. Could the MDAC2 have a standby mode while idle? I switch the MDAC on & off as needed, because it runs quite warm. I choose the 30 minute warm-up than keep it on 24/7.

Legally we cannot add "standby" as current EU regulations stipulate that any product with "Standby feature" must consume under 0.5W - and that's to low even to power the MDAC2's clock circuits!

Its the analogue stage that operates in ClassA mode that warms the unit - and the digital supplies, I'm not sure there's much that can be shut down that would reduce heat - while also eliminating the "warm up time".

I've spent much time on the MDAC2 design to lessen its circuits "inherent" dependency to supply noise / impedance etc (in technical terms I've improved the designs PSRR (Power supply rejection ratio)) - I'd like to believe the design will be less sensitive to the changes in component perimeters as they warm up.
 
I'd definitely go for that.
Can they be stacked without any fear of overheating? I'm thinking that this could possibly end up replacing my existing multichannel Audiolab 8000X7 without the need for extra shelf pace.

Yes - the amps have external heatsinks allowing them to be stacked by design.
 
Taking these active is the reason why in the past I've asked you about synchronising the volume control beween more than 1 MDAC.

Volume / Gain could be synchronised - but you would get random phase shift between "channels" as the clock circuits / ASRC are not locked to each other.
 
They're the latest nCore not the older UCD. Maybe when the MDAC2 boards are available I should bring them to CZ and let you have a listen.

That would be very interesting - and I look forward to your visit - hopefully you will be able to stay atleast a few days so we can spend time getting used to the system - and try various options etc...

Wizz Air to Brno - we will collect you from the airport which is only 50km away and arrange the hotel etc :)
 
Volume / Gain could be synchronised - but you would get random phase shift between "channels" as the clock circuits / ASRC are not locked to each other.

I started writing an even longer post (!) in reply to this, but I've run out of time to complete it now - I might get a chance to follow up with the detailed reasoning, but in summary:
- I don't think that's particularly important because...
- the DACs all individually have very stable clocks and the same ASRC performance characteristics
- the ASRC aspect is effectively happening at frequencies much higher than the data rate
- and it is ASRC and not synchronous reclocking
- the individual ASRC circuits will have very similar (the same?) behaviour to the incoming signal as each other
So I don't think there's any problem with relative drifting of the ASRC between different DACS - they're all to the same high standard. I don't think any phase shifts will be random as in 'jitter' random.

- the DACs are all receiving the same source of SPDIF signal (possibly they could be receiving the same multi-channel SPDIF signal - ignore that for the moment)
- the (spdif) source - the DSP crossover - will have have a single high performance stable clock driving high performance SPDIF outputs.
So we have the limitations of SPDIF but nothing worse than any other SPDIF source. And all the SPDIF outputs are driven by/synchronised to the same source clock so to some extent variations will/could be common across all SPDIF outputs at the same time.

But overall, whilst it may be better to have one universal clock, running independent DACs and leaving them each to sort out their own ASRC is the lesser of many other potential evils:
- Active overcomes so many limitations in the speaker/crossover/equalisation chain that the missing 0.X% of performance that could be further achieved by having a single master clock is outweighed by the greater benefits of an active system with independent ASRC recovery in each DAC
- The alternative is to choose/be limited by whatever DAC implementation has been chosen as part of the DSP design and I think that has another set of compromises

If we think there's a problem with DACs wandering relative to each other then an interesting experiment would be to feed the same high quality stereo SPDIF signal simultaneously into 2 MDACs and use one for each channel. Is there any degradation in sound quality because their ASRCs aren't locked? My feeling so far is that there wouldn't be.

Alternatively, there may be arguments about whether to use 2 stereo DACs horizontally or vertically. Eg if locking the performance/clocks between the L & R HF channels is determined to be important, then horizontal 'bi-DACing' would provide the best results

What is the delay on the spdif output from the MDAC? The experiment could be run by taking the (high quality de-jittered) SPDIF output from one MDAC and feeding into a second MDAC. That may overcome any concerns about variation between the different SPDIF input signals

PS. the point about synchronising gain between multiple MDACs rather than doing it in the DSP is because I believe that the right point to control gain digitally is at the output stage using all of the Sabre's 32 bits
 
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