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Main power cables

The amount of times I've begun to write a.post on this topic and then ended up never posting it is countless and solely due to I rthe responsee it would get. I don't mind people disagreeing but the tone of the cable threads gets personal and nasty and puts me off contributing. If some action is being taken, then good!
 
Yes, actually biggest trouble makers in all cable threads are people who absolutely do not care about cables. Why they do not care about cables but care so much to speak about them, is interesting phenomenon.
 
The concern I have however, is that PFM turns into a polarised community whereby the owner evicts residents simply because he doesn't like them or its not in his commercial interests.
I can only urge you, for the sake of the 'Green' and pleasant Audio forum, to place your apparent personal views to one side and moderate it in a fashion that is democratic, inclusive and above all fair.
I'm not sure how long PFM's been running, but Tony's managed to somehow avoid going down that road so far, and given his character, it's hardly likely to happen in the future, is it?

I have to smile at the suggestion that this forum is somehow poorly moderated and run, which it certainly would be if the owner allowed too much of their personal views to spill over into its administration. Seriously, do you ever look at other forums on the 'Net?
 
If I'm not wrong all it would take is the none believers to butt out of the relevant thread. No need for a bun-fight and the condensing tone.
 
If I'm not wrong all it would take is the none believers to butt out of the relevant thread. No need for a bun-fight and the condensing tone.

It`s (supposed to be) an open forum. You can hardly expect Engineers and Scientists with actual relevant knowledge to ignore misinformation when they see it, then the forum would become simply a platform for manufacturers shills.

I do think that the repetitive and circular posts are not helpful, nor is there any need for abuse but it can be hard for people not to retaliate when deliberately provocative posts are made against them.

I think there is a serious danger of knowledgeable people leaving the forum and it becoming a self congratulatory subjectivist enclave - Is that what you want Tonyl?
 
OK get that, but is there any need for the continuous sniggering, plus are these so called experts that have never provided a single proven design or engineering qualification to be taken as gospel and truthful, IF so then how are they any more really the wiser?!
There comments are nothing more than another subjective, dogmatic viewpoint
 
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I really value the techies challenging magical thinking. Saved me a few bob over the years. It surprises me that anyone with even a minor interest in the hobby hasn’t already heard all the arguments many times already.
It is important that that the challenge is made perhaps two or three times then leave them to it. It’s a man thing, bit like cars, identity and status.
 
It`s (supposed to be) an open forum. You can hardly expect Engineers and Scientists with actual relevant knowledge to ignore misinformation when they see it, then the forum would become simply a platform for manufacturers shills.

I do think that the repetitive and circular posts are not helpful, nor is there any need for abuse but it can be hard for people not to retaliate when deliberately provocative posts are made against them.

I think there is a serious danger of knowledgeable people leaving the forum and it becoming a self congratulatory subjectivist enclave - Is that what you want Tonyl?

Good point.
Self-congratulatory like the Harbeth Users Group, for instance.
 
I think there is a serious danger of knowledgeable people leaving the forum and it becoming a self congratulatory subjectivist enclave - Is that what you want Tony?

Nothing has changed. I just want politeness and respect for all widely held audio industry views and for the real crusaders to take their agendas and aggressive behaviour off to their own sites as it is so obviously against the AUP of this site. As others have said there is absolutely no consensus within audio engineering anyway, many who are infinitely more successful than the couple that were thread-crapping/trolling this thread holding a very different view. One of the worst offenders is just a dealer with no technical knowledge anyway. As I say it is not that these folk haven’t been warned previously. They will be culled if this culture continues.

Anyway I deleted in full accordance to an AUP that hasn’t been altered in any meaningful way for over a decade or more, so it should be clear to all. Cyclic argument has always been a clause in its current wording as has trade account holders not being allowed shilling their products, ideologies or agendas on in the main audio room (that is what the trade areas are for). I realise I have been very lapse in policing these aspects, but I’ll likely start working a little harder and the rules have always existed!

If people don’t like the AUP despite having agreed to it when they joined the site there is little I can really do about that. It is what it has always been and it is linked to on every single page of the site, so no one has an excuse for not understanding it.

PS Just to reiterate it is the behaviour that is the issue, the polarised cyclic stuff, the sheer arrogance, jeering and abuse. I don’t personally have any strong views on cables, like most folk I’d not pay a fortune, but I’d not use badly made crap either.
 
I am happy this thread has been culled, but equally quite enjoyed the arguments.

For me It would be helpful if PFM/TonyL took a side on in either the Objectivist or Subjectivist view. I think that the problem right now is not knowing they stand, and, by implication, whether it's worth having a cable debate (or whatever).

I know that is a tall ask because that would imply potential favoritism to one area, but I think it might slow down or avoid so many cyclical debates.
 
Anyway I deleted in full accordance to an AUP that hasn’t been altered in any meaningful way for over a decade or more, so it should be clear to all. Cyclic argument has always been a clause in its current wording as has trade account holders not being allowed shilling their products, ideologies or agendas on in the main audio room (that is what the trade areas are for). I realise I have been very lapse in policing these aspects, but I’ll likely start working a little harder and the rules have always existed!

I doubt anyone would have an argument with the AUP being enforced, my perception, and it is only my perception, is that action has sometimes been taken, not entirely without justification, against aggressive objective posts but subjective and often equally aggressive posts are given much more leeway.
 
I doubt anyone would have an argument with the AUP being enforced, my perception, and it is only my perception, is that action has sometimes been taken, not entirely without justification, against aggressive objective posts but subjective and often equally aggressive posts are given much more leeway.

Basically because the objective side *always* seeks to shut-down discussion and bully other views off the site. It has zero tolerance.

The thread format is always thus: bloke starts thread asking has anyone heard this particular product in this particular context. Crusader arrives, tells him he is wrong/imagining everything and an idiot. Any challenge to this fundamentalism is attacked and belittled despite the attacker having no direct experience of the scenario being discussed. Thread therefore derailed and if left for an afternoon likely ending up with 10 pages of aggressive crap for the mod team to deal with.

My aim right from the very start of pfm was to plant the flag in the centre ground. I do not want to moderate to either side, but crusader evangelism forces my hand. They simply will not allow people who reject their mindset to hold a conversation. I don’t accept the ‘science’ vs. ‘witchcraft’ argument either as so many exceptionally successful industry-leading audio engineers are on the ‘cables make a difference’ side of the argument. As such I view the fundamentalism as trolling. I need to host a more tolerant discussion that allows all voices space.

PS The annoying thing is audio forums do exist for just this mindset, e.g. IIRC Hydrogen Audio has a 100% objectivist stance that is very firmly enforced, i.e. if one want to live in this particular world there are options away from my site, just as there are if one wishes to live in a 100% subjective world.
 
the finest of lines...people are all different, some angry, some crazy, some illogical, some way to sensible and some rude (and now we say, etc). That's whats good about humanity.
Any moderated forum must abide by, or, try and change the owners AUP. I think PFM is fairly and well run, but Tony also isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. The point is, we are here, and if we want to stay, we can't always have things our way. My 'lets suggest a change' contribution, is that I'd prefer 'offenders' to be warned . I think some are, but those sailing close to the wind are not if I understand correctly. This does take more moderation effort but I think it would help prevent the kind of downward spiral that occurred here last week. What about a traffic light system? If a mod finds a post is pushing too far, an amber light comes on in ones 'alert' box with a link to the post. If the poster continues, he gets a red and amber, and if a third time, someone hits him/her over the head with a large mallet (preferably) or a red light starts an automatic week's ban. A second red light, whenever, means a month away, a third is goodbye.
As to cables and cyclical arguments, as I said somewhere now lost in the mists of the thread bin, a, not everyone here IS an old cycnic, and if posts are started asking obvious questions, then there is the proof that this is true, and b, some of us get passionate and not all of us are perfect at staying calm and logical. And since this snake has now swallowed it's tail, I'm away to find Ynwoans new exciting thread!
 
I want the site to be neutral on the subject, I really don’t want to host aggressive, arrogant and rude agenda posts from either side,
It isn't possible to be neutral on the subject. On the one hand you have the informed promoting a scientific view and on the other a combination of the uninformed and those involved in profiting from the deception promoting magical thinking. The BBC has quite rightly has been getting some serious stick for seeking to give each side of arguments like this equal weighting. A reasonable response is to acknowledge and tolerate the deception but if you seek to appease and encourage it by removing as "collateral damage" civil reasoned arguments against it from well informed moderates you will almost certainly lose one of the main distinguishing features of PFM compared to other UK audio forums: the presence of a few well informed moderates. The passionate missionary types are unlikely to mind a few posts getting deleted. Battle scars. The moderates however are going to be less happy about reasonable civil posts getting deleted. Not only their own but also posts from others expressing similar views.

I don't know what goes on behind the scenes but from where I sit I see on the first page one rapidly growing thread with cable in the title perhaps 25% of the time. I know what is in it and so most of the time I look at other threads but when in the mood I will dip in for a chat and to support a scientific view against a deceptive magical one. In truth I tend to spend more effort correcting the science and arguing for tolerance rather than directly against the deception but having been involved in home audio before the deception entered the mainstream I am well aware of the scale of what has been lost by it's presence.
 
It isn't possible to be neutral on the subject. On the one hand you have the informed promoting a scientific view and on the other a combination of the uninformed and those involved in profiting from the deception promoting magical thinking.

Except that isn’t the case. The people arguing the loudest here have designed nothing anyone has heard of in the audio world. They are repair techs, work in other fields of electronics, are hi-fi salesmen, or some combination thereof. If we were dealing with designers for top name audio brands with a product portfolio and pedigree that can be reviewed (who as stated are split widely across the two camps, just as are their customers) I’d maybe take it all a bit more seriously. Basically it is just opinion puffed-up with some ego and willy-showing. It has no place on my website.

PS I’m getting sick of arguing this now to be honest. The AUP is what it is. Anyone caught breaching it from now on will be removed from the site whether they have a trade account or not.
 
Except that isn’t the case. The people arguing the loudest here have designed nothing anyone has heard of in the audio world. They are repair techs, work in other fields of electronics, are hi-fi salesmen, or some combination thereof. If we were dealing with designers for top name audio brands with a product portfolio and pedigree that can be reviewed (who as stated are split widely across the two camps, just as are their customers) I’d maybe take it all a bit more seriously. Basically it is just opinion puffed-up with some ego and willy-showing. It has no place on my website.
Science is not a matter of opinion but of fact and it is this that distinguishes the two sides. Facts on one side and deception on the other. Yes shrieky intolerant Dawkins-types are irritating but deleting their posts was not the mistake you made. You deleted civil informed moderate posts as well and it is this that risks shifting PFM towards the other UK audio forums.

Moderating a forum is not something I know much about nor do I know where you might wish to take the forum in the future but your action surprised me. I assumed it was because you couldn't be arsed to sort out what needed deleting from what didn't and opted to remove the lot rather than leave alone. I must confess to having read only the first page and the last two before the mass deletion happened so don't know in detail what was removed but it is very likely to have been no different to the usual. If it is the start of a campaign I will watch it with interest but given PFM is currently pretty much at the top of the heap when it comes to informed moderate posts about home audio I suspect making improvements is unlikely to be straightforward.
 
Science is not a matter of opinion but of fact and it is this that distinguishes the two sides. Facts on one side and deception on the other.

The problem is that by taking that line you are effectively calling the overwhelming majority of successful audio companies charlatans. I am not that arrogant. I am perfectly prepared to listen to the arguments of say Rega, Naim, Linn, Musical Fidelity, Mission, Exposure, Krell, Conrad Johnson, Nelson Pass, Chord, DPA, Audio Research, ProAc etc etc etc, all of whom either acknowledge cables make some degree of difference or actually market them for use with their products.

This is an audio discussion website. It was created to discuss audio equipment, and I’m always happy to host that. What I won’t host is content from a couple of rank outsiders who are arrogant enough to believe their unproven personal opinion trumps the combined knowledge and engineering experience of the companies I list (and more!) and seek to shutdown discussion and bully people from starting threads. If we are taking a credibility poll I’ll side with those who have consistently proven themselves in an exceptionally tough marketplace and built products that are highly respected household names over a couple of unknown internet warriors.

This isn’t just my own viewpoint, it is the overwhelming majority viewpoint of pfm members as indicated in site feedback, post reports etc. If folk have a extreme objectivist agenda they wish to yell and scream about all day then please take it to Hydrogen Audio or wherever. It is not welcome here. I want to host friendly discussion where folk can discuss say a Rega mains lead without being trolled off the site.
 
Oddly it is all science. I have no doubt that those that perceive a difference in the case of stuff like mains cables really do and good luck to them. The brain is a very powerful thing.
 


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