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LP12 Motor @ 7o’clock

I don't see the argument for 'in line with' or 'across' the tracking axis. Either case implies the subchassis is moving, and that has to be bad.

I postulate that the reason the bounce is critical is that the only useful isolation the suspension offers is vertical. If the suspension isn't bouncing vertically then it is actively harmful. If it is bouncing vertically then it is saving you from vertical vibration, where's it coming from? If you have a shelf on an external wall or a stand ln a solid floor, perhaps the suspension is actually harmful.

So I've just printed three spring replacements, I'll give the very unsuspended LP12 a go and see what's what.
 
If it is bouncing vertically then it is saving you from vertical vibration, where's it coming from? If you have a shelf on an external wall or a stand ln a solid floor, perhaps the suspension is actually harmful.

I think the LP12 suspension is very widely misunderstood. It should be fairly obvious that it does not provide good isolation from the fact that..it does not provide good isolation! If it did, the thing the deck is sitting on would make no difference and it clearly does. The Linn is just as sensitive to what it sits on as any other turntable. Maybe more so. And Linn devotees can't argue with this as Linn themselves produce baseboards which include suspension. If the springs truly isolated the deck then nothing on the other side of them would matter.

It's possibly better to think of the suspension as being analogous to the springs on a car. Yeah, isolation going on but the other side of it is more effective coupling.
 
Interestingly a wall shelf was a must for the many iterations of LP 12 that have passed through. A Target one with the crappy piece of MDF replaced with a RA Torlyte platform.
Also worked well for a Xerxes.
Given the Oracle was sat on an Ikea Lack table ,moved it to the wall shelf.. and the bass vanished.
Tried a slab of marble on the wall shelf to no avail.
It now resides on a Townshend rack and the wall shelf is long gone.
Possibly because the Oracle hangs on the springs as opposed to sits on them? but works for me.
D.I.Y. Lenco in a plinth that's a two man lift doesn't give a fig what it's sat on:)
 
Not if the loft is between 9 and 11 meters high and has an area of 180sqm.

Hard to believe that this photo appears regularly. Anyway, a music lover from England heard the system and was just as enthusiastic as I still am today. Even though all electronics were replaced except for the LP12.

A topplate with 7 o'clock arrangement I have by the way still available. At the time with the old bearing this was an improvement.
Hi Herman,

How are you?

Yes the photo of your system does appear regularly.

It still looks like an amazing room!

Ian
 
Some years ago I had a batch of top plates made with an extra hole at the 7.30 position. I preferred the 7.30 position with the Airpax motor but couldn’t really say either way with the Maxon dc motor.
 
Not at all, Linn are as mercenary as they come and are quick to adopt new technologies and strategies to improve their market advantage.
 
I think the LP12 suspension is very widely misunderstood. It should be fairly obvious that it does not provide good isolation from the fact that..it does not provide good isolation! If it did, the thing the deck is sitting on would make no difference and it clearly does. The Linn is just as sensitive to what it sits on as any other turntable. Maybe more so. And Linn devotees can't argue with this as Linn themselves produce baseboards which include suspension. If the springs truly isolated the deck then nothing on the other side of them would matter.

It's possibly better to think of the suspension as being analogous to the springs on a car. Yeah, isolation going on but the other side of it is more effective coupling.

The LP12 suspension can’t make up for a poor floor that moves enough to cause the record to skip. I think the Trampolin was designed to minimize that problem but I found it a compromise performance and setup-wise and the suspension within a suspension was an idea I wasn’t comfortable with. A light rigid table because of its weight doesn’t store up energy and was always recommended as the best surface for the LP12. This was also the case if you had a solid concrete floor, it still improved performance. I believe the suspension isolates well from vibrations in the music range, it has its limits in the subsonic range.

The best place I’ve found for the LP12 is on a basement floor with the speakers in a different room upstairs well isolated from the suspended floor and the amplifier on a wall shelf isolated from the speakers.

Here’s a bit about the Villchur AR turntable, a pioneer in this type of suspension:

In 1961, Villchur designed a turntable (record player), and published an article explaining its several innovations. The tone arm and turntable platen were mounted together and suspended independently from the body of the turntable, so that a shock to the body of the turntable would have little effect on the playing of the record. Indeed, Villchur was fond of demonstrating this independent suspension by hitting the wooden base of the turntable with a mallet while the record played on flawlessly. The mechanical isolation of the tone-arm-platen assembly from the base had a further advantage. It eliminated the “muddy” bass sound that often resulted when vibrations from the loudspeaker were conducted through the floor and caused feedback through the pickup into the amplifier.

The low mass and damped suspension of the tone arm itself compensated for any irregularities on the surface of the disk so that even warped records could often be played without distortion. When released, the tone arm floated down to the record, so that if it were dropped, it would not crash into the disc (which could harm both the needle and the record). With its quiet motor and precision-ground rubber drive belt, the turntable had extremely low wow and flutter (the lowest of any turntable on the market at that time), and far exceeded the National Association of Broadcasters (National Association of Broadcasters) standards for turntable measurements. The overall look of the turntable was given an award by Industrial Design magazine.
 
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The LP12 suspension can’t make up for a poor floor that moves enough to cause the record to skip.

It's not even trying to. It's not designed to isolate the deck from footfall, it's tuned to deal with vibration at audio frequencies which are much higher. At lower frequencies it's actually worse than a rigid deck. If you have a wobbly floor a Rega will give you less aggravation than a Linn.

You mention the AR turntable and that is tuned to deal with footfall. But the LP12 sounds better.

A light rigid table because of its weight doesn’t store up energy and was always recommended as the best surface for the LP12.

Yes, Ikea LAK tables were the cheapest option years ago and Rega still recommend a light support support today. In fact the the low mass trip their top turntables are on is just an extension of this philosophy. It's a complex situation thought and I doubt we know exactly what is going on. Mana is often cited as the best thing to sit your LP12, or any turntable on, and it's extremely heavy. Yet it sounds like a lightweight support.
 
I know a lot of people who use LP12s at home, some of them industry veterans with many decades of experience, I can count the number of Mana users on the fingers of one stump.
 
It's not even trying to. It's not designed to isolate the deck from footfall, it's tuned to deal with vibration at audio frequencies which are much higher. At lower frequencies it's actually worse than a rigid deck. If you have a wobbly floor a Rega will give you less aggravation than a Linn.
My experience and understanding of the mechanical system suggests exactly what you have described.
 
It's not even trying to. It's not designed to isolate the deck from footfall, it's tuned to deal with vibration at audio frequencies which are much higher. At lower frequencies it's actually worse than a rigid deck. If you have a wobbly floor a Rega will give you less aggravation than a Linn.

I agree and that is what I said regarding footfall. Besides footfall what are these lower frequencies that make the LP12 suspension worse than a unsuspended turntable? My understanding is that the resonance frequency of the LP12 suspension is around 3Hz so the platter and arm would be isolated from frequencies above that.
 
The best place I’ve found for the LP12 is on a basement floor with the speakers in a different room upstairs well isolated from the suspended floor and the amplifier on a wall shelf isolated from the speakers.

I tried that but kept missing the first track when running back upstairs
 
My understanding is that the resonance frequency of the LP12 suspension is around 3Hz so the platter and arm would be isolated from frequencies above that.

It doesn't seem to be. As I said, if the deck was truly isolated it would be indifferent to what it sits on but that is not the case. It's just as sensitive as any other turntable, perhaps more so. Clearly there is transmission of energy at audio frequencies through the suspension. I had to move my LP12 to the stand further away from the speaker because loud music could set up oscillation in the suspension.

A rigid deck is not necessarily better, but it is different. It'll be better in some ways but worse in others. Worth noting that suspension on turntables is nowhere near as popular as it used to be. Have a look at the turntable market, not a lot of suspended decks out there.
 
It doesn't seem to be. As I said, if the deck was truly isolated it would be indifferent to what it sits on but that is not the case. It's just as sensitive as any other turntable, perhaps more so. Clearly there is transmission of energy at audio frequencies through the suspension. I had to move my LP12 to the stand further away from the speaker because loud music could set up oscillation in the suspension.

A rigid deck is not necessarily better, but it is different. It'll be better in some ways but worse in others. Worth noting that suspension on turntables is nowhere near as popular as it used to be. Have a look at the turntable market, not a lot of suspended decks out there.

I suppose that would also depend on the floor and the particular stand you were using. A heavy coupled Mana stand would not be ideal.
 


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