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Linn Sondek LP12 : Purpose built, or not and to what Spec ?

stevec67 said:
For me the LP12 with the magic is the pre Cirkus 80s deck. It has that warmth and it boogies. The Cirkus makes it more accurate and "better" but it loses the magic. At that point there are any number of decks for less that are better. But the 80s one doesn't have competition that do what it does, if you like the trick.

Same goes for Naim amps. If you like it, great. Nothing else will do.
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Mot sure I totally agree having moved from a a pre-Cirkus dexk to a Karousel.
 
highfell said:
So I could go down that route, make sure it has a decent power supply and sub-chassis and spend a grand plus plus on a decent tone-arm and cartridge and be someway less than £3.5K

EDIT : what good tonearms Linn or not Linn work well
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Unipivots. Best I've owned on a Linn was Nottm A Omega Point. Better than an ittok. IMO, of course.
 
My point about the Mantra (which bettered the Axis) is take it along to give you a benchmark to judge the Linn (and I would encourage you to try at least one other deck) against.

BTW I love the LP12 and who knows I may own one again, probably with the Nima arm and not much else. That said I was listening to an 80s/Ittok/10x5 deck against a lowly new Dual deck with a £100 cartridge recently, and it was left wanting in many areas.
 
stevec67 said:
For me the LP12 with the magic is the pre Cirkus 80s deck. It has that warmth and it boogies. The Cirkus makes it more accurate and "better" but it loses the magic. At that point there are any number of decks for less that are better. But the 80s one doesn't have competition that do what it does, if you like the trick.

Same goes for Naim amps. If you like it, great. Nothing else will do.
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I concur with what you are saying.My LP12 had the original pre cirkus bearing and i was getting it serviced 3 years ago with new belt,suspension reset,grommets on its return from dealers I was blown away how vibrant it sounded and that word " boogied " really holds true.The bass had a real transient slam about it.
On the strength of new life injected into my LP12 upgraded to Majik sub chassis - Karousel and Lingo 4 and a Hana ML cart.
Its a much more accurate deck and I really enjoy it a great deal. But sometimes miss that verve of the LP12 with an AT 95 ML cart and pre cirkus bearing.
Pleased I did upgrade though and no regreats at all.I suppose I have an LP12 in a sweetspot where going Radikal would cost an absolute fortune for a incremental better performance but for £4500 its just to much to justify and energy prices going threw the roof....enough said.

So a well set up vintage LP12 can really deliver and you can save a lot of dosh on the upgrade path.
 
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torstoi said:
Carbon/ alloy mix..
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Nope. A bullshit con. An alloy tube with the thin carbon effect wrap on it. You can see the join on the underside and of course see how thin it is on the end of the tube. I'm not saying all ProJect carbon arms are like that, I do not know, but that one was. Basically an alloy tube with a sticker on it.

The bearings on ProJect budget tonearms are not good, they are rubbish. Nothing about the build of budget ProJect decks is good and the mid-priced ones I've seen are not massively better. What I came to realize is that ProJect use the cheapest way possible to achieve the goal. You can look at the way the arm is built, the way the platter and bearing are made, the way the whole deck is assembled and I guarantee that you'll struggle to come up with a cheaper way of doing it.
 
There’s pretty much a perfect spec LP12 listed on classified section. Seems a no brainier & room to tinker in the future if OP wishes.
 
Mr Pig said:
Nope. A bullshit con. An alloy tube with the thin carbon effect wrap on it. You can see the join on the underside and of course see how thin it is on the end of the tube. I'm not saying all ProJect carbon arms are like that, I do not know, but that one was. Basically an alloy tube with a sticker on it.

The bearings on ProJect budget tonearms are not good, they are rubbish. Nothing about the build of budget ProJect decks is good and the mid-priced ones I've seen are not massively better. What I came to realize is that ProJect use the cheapest way possible to achieve the goal. You can look at the way the arm is built, the way the platter and bearing are made, the way the whole deck is assembled and I guarantee that you'll struggle to come up with a cheaper way of doing it.
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On past form, just a matter of time before mR Pig buys a Project.
 
torstoi said:
Carbon/ alloy mix, there has been a few carbon only arms for a while,
but I preferred the carbon/ alloy models.
The arms are incredibly quick and rather dry sounding which some may perceive as a little lean
compared to other arms.
I'd agree they might not be for everyone as to me they lack a sympathetic own tonality.
The bearings are very good and with demanding material I very much appreciate their lack of signature and
the precision they offer.
I prefer them to Regas meanwhile which to me are bringing a certain signature with them I'm not so fond of anymore.
It's a matter of taste in my opinion and I think the kind of music material you typically listen to also plays a role if that's important to you or if you like it or not.
To me what Funk did was to remove the Rega armtube (an thus the to me unpleasant Rega signature) and replaced it by an alloy/ carbon mix structure + went for better bearings.
The result is something that's closer to a Project carbon than a Rega in sound.
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Rega sound signature? Really? If I have a criticism of Rega it's that they sound grey. I don't call that signature, it's just a bit boring. Signature is the opposite. LP12 has a signature, you may like it or not. I do. Naim, especially olive, has a signature. Again, you may like it or not. I don't. But if you do, nothing else matches up. Compare and contrast stuff like Audiolab, it bores me to death. The thing I hate most is that there's nothing to like. OK, I don't like Naim, and I make no excuses,but if you do I can at least understand why.
 
Paul Mc said:
My point about the Mantra (which bettered the Axis) is take it along to give you a benchmark to judge the Linn (and I would encourage you to try at least one other deck) against.

BTW I love the LP12 and who knows I may own one again, probably with the Nima arm and not much else. That said I was listening to an 80s/Ittok/10x5 deck against a lowly new Dual deck with a £100 cartridge recently, and it was left wanting in many areas.
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Wow. Really? What was the competition?
 
Didn’t manticore go out of business before the Axis was released? Pretty sure they were never in competition with each other.
 
Voyd the Voyd said:
Mechanically the Mantra's suspension layout is superior the LP12, as is the sub-chassis in general, though it does suffer from a weak arm-board mounting on the chassis. Doug Hewitt should have paid more attention to that in my mind. However, there's much the can be done to improve the Mantra, though it already has a high precision brass main bearing, especially so if the Mega bearing was installed. A Magician arm would be great if you could get one.
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At the risk of derailing the OP a little I wanted to pick up on this. I have a Mantra from c1988. It has the green switch, 3 nub sub platter and a RB250. Interested in your thoughts on potential improvements, as it'll be quite a while before I have an opportunity to go for an LP12.
 
Same as mine!

I believe the three nub sub platter is superior to the brass ring one.

1 Fit a DIY Norton Airpower transformer power supply or a" Geddon" clone, though I prefer the Airpower.

2. Strengthen the very weak portion of the sub-chassis which the mdf arm-board mounts to with the diddy wood screws. With regard to this you could bond on small section aluminium triangular section or box section tubing as an experiment. I'd use 3M /Scotch VHB double coated tape.. If you don't like what it does it may be carefully removed with hair dryer.

3. Try using different materials for the arm board. I'd use aluminium in a thickness to suit your Rega. Or possibly use SRPB/Tufnol which I also like for small diameter arm-boards.

4. Experiment with plinth feet, eg oak cones 3 instead of 4.

Above all have fun experimenting and learning!
 
Voyd the Voyd said:
Same as mine!

I believe the three nub sub platter is superior to the brass ring one.

1 Fit a DIY Norton Airpower transformer power supply or a" Geddon" clone, though I prefer the Airpower.

2. Strengthen the very weak portion of the sub-chassis which the mdf arm-board mounts to with the diddy wood screws. With regard to this you could bond on small section aluminium triangular section or box section tubing as an experiment. I'd use 3M /Scotch VHB double coated tape.. If you don't like what it does it may be carefully removed with hair dryer.

3. Try using different materials for the arm board. I'd use aluminium in a thickness to suit your Rega. Or possibly use SRPB/Tufnol which I also like for small diameter arm-boards.

4. Experiment with plinth feet, eg oak cones 3 instead of 4.

Above all have fun experimenting and learning!
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All three the same. But no tweaking done by me !!
 
Spoke to Cymbiosis today : their view of key components on a Linn in order of influence on sound quality:

1. Bearing
2. Power Supply
3. Tone Arm
4. Cartridge
 
highfell said:
Spoke to Cymbiosis today : their view of key components on a Linn in order of influence on sound quality:

1. Bearing
2. Power Supply
3. Tone Arm
4. Cartridge
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I think that's generally accepted but, with myself being new to the LP12 arena and without bias, it wasn't obvious that this was the thinking.
Having heard different combinations, my ears couldn't hear a major, if any, change to the sound, that would justify the spend that was required.
Everyone's ears are different though.
 
dalryc said:
I think that's generally accepted but, with myself being new to the LP12 arena and without bias, it wasn't obvious that this was the thinking.
Having heard different combinations, my ears couldn't hear a major, if any, change to the sound, that would justify the spend that was required.
Everyone's ears are different though.
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And I bought a new Karousel deck, s/h Lingo 3, s/h Kore, s/h Akito and kept my old cartridge.
 
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