Labour Leader: Keir Starmer IV

[flatpopely]

The SNP needs to let the electorate know what independance means if they cannot rejoin the EU.

 

[Joe Hutch]

The SNP needs to let the electorate know what independance means if they cannot rejoin the EU.

Just like the Tory party made clear just how bad Brexit would turn out to be. That's not how politics works. It's like the apocryphal opening of Mrs Beeton's recipe for jugged hare 'First, catch your hare'.

 

[ks.234]

Bold...I agree.

Your second paragraph...
No, they are not. The tory govt was enabled first by LibDems in 2010, then helped along by Scots in 2015 taking 40 seats from Labour, all the while helped along by the undermining of Miliband and Corbyn. Plenty here slagging off Labour for AS just as they are slagging off the party now. “Labour doesn’t stand for anything”...etc. All of this was well before 2019 and the switch to “enabling the tories in order to get brexit done”, mostly because people were sick to death of hearing about a referendum in 2016 and the stagnation in the country caused from that moment, much of it actually caused by hard remainers trying to overturn the result, even rejecting all chances of a soft brexit.

I agree with much of what you say.

I agree that post Brexit, ‘hard Remainers’ tactics have been counter productive and have argued such myself often getting varying levels of grief in return.

I totally agree that the Lib Dem’s since 2010 are the biggest Tory enablers of anyone.

I cannot agree the Scots. Labour has to take a large part of the responsibility for the loss of seats since 2014.

But most of all I cannot agree with the Tory Enabler jibe. The biggest enabler of the Tories has been Brexit. Johnson’s success has relied heavily in getting Brexit done. Anyone who supports Brexit is a Tory enabler of far greater significance than any critic of the current Labour Party and anyone using that jibe who did not vote for Corbyn must be doing so for the purposes of trolling. You have said you did vote for Corbyn, so that doesn’t apply to you in this case

As well as enabling Brexit, Brexit was overwhelmingly an English Nationalist Project. Reliable evidence points to nearly 80% of Brexit voters identifying as English and specifically not British.

 

[ks.234]

Then you certainly accept it when people choose to not answer you. Unless you think they owe you something ?

If you use the ‘Tory enabler’ as a jibe against people who did not vote Labour, yet did not vote Labour yourself, you are a hypocrite or a troll, or both.

 

[ks.234]

It is never relevant. How people vote is a private matter. Someone may choose to say how they voted but it is entirely their choice and you should respect that.

Recently you have demanded people stop using your given name and others piled in to the effect your demand be respected. Well it is, isn’t it...

You should respect that how people vote is a private matter for them and is absolutely none of your business. You should stop making such demands.

Sorry, have to disagree. If someone is using the ‘Tory enabler’ jibe against someone else, but it is unclear if the are a Tory enabler themselves, it is entirely reasonable to ask for clarity on their position. If that person chooses to offer clarity on their position, that is their right, but they cannot then get bad tempered when people are unclear on their position.

The fact that I have asked you not to use my real name is entirely different. For one thing, it appears to be against the AUP.

 

[ks.234]

No I didn't. At the time I didn't feel there was anyone worth making the walk to the polling station.

That is your right of course, but according to a couple of people on here, that makes you a Tory enabler.

 

[flatpopely]

Just like the Tory party made clear just how bad Brexit would turn out to be. That's not how politics works. It's like the apocryphal opening of Mrs Beeton's recipe for jugged hare 'First, catch your hare'.

So it's independance come what may and damn the consequences?

 

[ks.234]

Then you certainly accept it when people choose to not answer you. Unless you think they owe you something ?

You’ve misunderstood the sequence of events.

 

[Joe Hutch]

So it's independance come what may and damn the consequences?

Yep. Just like Brexit, in fact!

But in reality I expect the push will be for ever-increasing devolution, with independence further down the road, at which point the rest of the UK may have sussed that Brexit was not a good idea.

 

[Chops54]

That is your right of course, but according to a couple of people on here, that makes you a Tory enabler.

Do you really think that bothers me? I fully expected Labour to walk the last election without my help.

 

[ks.234]

So it's independance come what may and damn the consequences?

If Brexit was about English Nationalism, and the fact that 80% of Brexit voters identified as ‘English not British’ suggests strongly that it was, isn’t independence for the other regions of the British Isles a foreseeable consequence?

Or, to,put it another way, if we do not want to see Scottish independence, we surely need a national discussion on the advantages of a wider and inclusive national identity?

 

[TheDecameron]

It’s a case of do as I say not as I do.

 

[Brian]

Brian, I’m questioning your claims of , how did you describe it, ‘common sense, decency and a lack of hypocrisy’. Attacking others for something- not voting for the political party you yourself say you hardly ever vote for or more amusingly, eating a lot of greasy food while suggesting others do, looks rather like hypocrisy.

Not at all hypocritical.

For starters, I don’t eat a lot of greasy food, I just don’t go out of my way to avoid it, I try to avoid sugar. My attitude to food is eat whatever you want to eat, it’s nothing to do with me. (You need to look at your sentence there, by the way).

What I’ve said consistently about Labour and elections is don’t complain about a tory govt if you vote in a manner that makes it difficult for Labour to win a majority. I realise it is probably a bit too subtle for some here, it calls for thinking tactically.

 

[Brian]

In cold, hard, crude terms the argument that the only 'real' choice is between Labour and Tory has an element of truth, but as Labour continues its creep towards being 'More Tory', there may essentially be no choice at all; you'll get either a Tory government with a blue rosette or a Tory government with a red rosette. If you live in Scotland, however, you have another choice. You can vote for a party that will take your country out of this 'no choice' scenario entirely, and back into a wider union that your country never voted to leave.

Only with agreement of the tory govt, no guarantee of EU membership and probably years of a struggling economy. Looks like one of those 50 years before the benefits happen, as with brexit and Mogg, apparently.

What makes you say Labour is almost tory? Not being funny, but Labour has no policies and stands for nothing, or so it is said.

 

[TheDecameron]

Not at all hypocritical.

For starters, I don’t eat a lot of greasy food, I don’t go out of my way to avoid it, I try to avoid sugar. My attitude to food is eat whatever you want to eat, it’s nothing to do with me. (You need to look at your sentence there, by the way).

What I’ve said consistently about Labour and elections is don’t complain about a tory govt if you vote in a manner that makes it difficult for Labour to win a majority. I realise it is probably a bit too subtle for some here, it calls for thinking tactically.

Brian, please- you don’t do subtle, you just think you do- it’s beyond you,

 

[Cheese]

You’ve misunderstood the sequence of events.

No ks.234 it’s you who experience problems with the sequence of events, you’ve quoted the same sentence twice. And both times you answer besides the point, as you always do. But I have gone used to this by now, no worries.

 

[Brian]

Have areas of control that have been handed back to Scotland been a success? Health and Education for instance.

Have they been a success in England?

In which case voting for independance on the hope of rejoining the EU is very risky; the SNP need to set out very clearly what the likely outcome of independance is.

I don't think the SNP needs to do any such thing. Boris Johnson is essentially its best recruiting agent. At this stage, all the SNP needs to do is to point out that the English-based ruling party, having taken Scotland out of the EU against the wishes of most of its population, is not making a very good job of mitigating the adverse outcomes of Brexit.

The SNP needs to let the electorate know what independance means if they cannot rejoin the EU.

Just like the Tory party made clear just how bad Brexit would turn out to be. That's not how politics works. It's like the apocryphal opening of Mrs Beeton's recipe for jugged hare 'First, catch your hare'.

An interesting series of posts.

A question on the success or otherwise of the SNP in the area of Health and Education is ‘answered’ with a question of whether those been a success in England.

To win out in an election, it is acceptable for the SNP to sit back and let the tories be shit, the SNP doesn’t have to do anything, they can get votes by being less shit than the tories. Meanwhile, Labour is attacked by people who believe this is what the Labour party is doing.

The SNP doesn’t need to explain what independence means because the tories didn’t explain what brexit meant.

 

[Brian]

Brian, please- you don’t do subtle, you just think you do- it’s beyond you,

Well, you obviously struggle with the concept of tactical voting and FPTP, I was trying to be generous and accepting of your difficulty.

 

[ks.234]

No @ks.234 it’s you who experience problems with the sequence of events, you’ve quoted the same sentence twice. And both times you answer besides the point, as you always do. But I have gone used to this by now, no worries.

Gibberish, if you care to look you will see the sequence of event and where my question comes in that sequence. But as ever, you don’t acquaint yourself with facts before making a false accusation, but that’s what I expect now so I’ll leave it there

 

[TheDecameron]

Well, you obviously struggle with the concept of tactical voting and FPTP, I was trying to be generous and accepting of your difficulty.

The fact remains, you attack others for not voting for a party you have now admitted you virtually never vote for yourself. The tactical voting excuse is the same one proffered the Farage promoter here who votes to keep Labour from office, yet is someone you support on these threads. The contradictions are obvious to everyone and I go back to my question- what is it politically you both have in common?