miktec
retired
Perhaps if the opposing side refrained from talking utter made up shite - things could reach the giddy heights of 'politeness'
Jerry Sadowitz cancelled
- Thread starter foxwelljsly
- Start date
Perhaps if the opposing side refrained from talking utter made up shite - things could reach the giddy heights of 'politeness'
Still not debating. I've dealt with your type before - they went to bed with no story.
miktec
retired
Please feel free to post something factual and worthwhile that might engender a polite, constructive and respectful debate.
Failing that, the electric kettle thread promises to get very heated ....
I've asked for a debate on how JK Rowling might be punching down but all you did was lash out like a child - hilariously at me for someone else's comment. You've proven you aren't looking to debate so I'm not sure why you are here, apart for an outlet for your anger maybe?
miktec
retired
No - you made this statement:
"But it's not a question of money, status or property - it's about an opinion on gender. Are you telling me that her kind aren't allowed an opinion?"
I challenged you on this because it illustrates malicious reasoning and a clear attempt to divert the conversation into aggressive territory.
Any exchanges after that can be grouped in the category 'pointless banter' - you don't want to debate anything really, just score meaningless points.
Up to you - but I can play this game until I get bored ... and move on to something more meaningful ... like electric kettles
No - you made this statement:
"But it's not a question of money, status or property - it's about an opinion on gender. Are you telling me that her kind aren't allowed an opinion?"
I challenged you on this because it illustrates malicious reasoning and a clear attempt to divert the conversation into aggressive territory.
Any exchanges after that can be grouped in the category 'pointless banter' - you don't want to debate anything really, just score meaningless points.
Up to you - but I can play this game until I get bored ... and move on to something more meaningful ... like electric kettles
...and you replied with this,
Again - the kind of simplistic reduction glibly trotted out by 'cancel outrage' ranters.
There is a whole world of difference between having an opinion and having access to a wide platform to spread that opinion
Denying the latter is not denying the former - get it now?
.. .which is not debating the question, rather just trying to shout me down with a comment that means very little but serves to pigeon-hole me for having the audacity to pass comment. It's all rather pointless really....
miktec
retired
...and you replied with this,
Again - the kind of simplistic reduction glibly trotted out by 'cancel outrage' ranters.
There is a whole world of difference between having an opinion and having access to a wide platform to spread that opinion
Denying the latter is not denying the former - get it now?
.. .which is not debating the question, rather just trying to shout me down with a comment that means very little but serves to pigeon-hole me for having the audacity to pass comment. It's all rather pointless really....
Not really - your statement was exactly 'the kind of simplistic reduction glibly trotted out by 'cancel outrage' ranters' - and you are not alone, there are many media pundits using the same fallacious and disrespectful argumentation.
And I pointed out why ... which has clearly irked you to the extent that you have to drone on and on and on about it .... so if it was an attempt to 'shout you down' it clearly failed.
(Which is it wasn't - so it didn't)
Do you prefer an electric or gas model?
Marchbanks
Hat and Beard member
I’ve always thought ‘debate’ to be a rather grand term for what happens on an internet forum. It’s not the Oxford Union - it’s more like an argument in a saloon bar, complete with raised voices and finger pointing when things get really heated. And rather than admit defeat, you can flounce off (in your mind) to the pub down the road and slag everyone else off to the landlord there.
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
As is Sadowitz.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
From Sadowitz's tiny plantain to ballistic bananas to transphobia. What a classic PFM thread!
Ok, I’ll try. I don’t think it is complicated. JKR is is rich and famous. When she says something, it gets published by TV, internet and print news. She has a large megaphone for her views, whereas most of the trans people she has targeted do not. It would have been different had she gone specifically after, say, Caitlyn Jenner. She wouldn’t have been any more right, but at least she then would not be “punching down”.
You can't "prove" it one way or the other, because it's an opinion.
Opinion "a" - you can't be a woman unless you are a biological female with 2 X chromosomes.
Opinion "b" - you can become a woman even if you started otherwise, even if you started life with a Y chromosome and a penis.
You can't prove either right or wrong, it's like "proving" that the Mona Lisa is a better painting than "Sunflowers". If I don't think so, you can debate it all you like. I'll still say you're wrong.
klfrs
chill out
Is she?
Who did JKR go "after"?From Sadowitz's tiny plantain to ballistic bananas to transphobia. What a classic PFM thread!
Ok, I’ll try. I don’t think it is complicated. JKR is is rich and famous. When she says something, it gets published by TV, internet and print news. She has a large megaphone for her views, whereas most of the trans people she has targeted do not. It would have been different had she gone specifically after, say, Caitlyn Jenner. She wouldn’t have been any more right, but at least she then would not be “punching down”.
The sciences of biology and human biology aren't opinion.
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miktec
retired
Actually 'proving' that Opinion "a" is at least based on a very outdated concept when it comes to biological sex determination is pretty much a walk in the park ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/
"For many years, scientists believed that female development was the default programme, and that male development was actively switched on by the presence of a particular gene on the Y chromosome. In 1990, researchers made headlines when they uncovered the identity of this gene, which they called SRY. Just by itself, this gene can switch the gonad from ovarian to testicular development. For example, XX individuals who carry a fragment of the Y chromosome that contains SRY develop as males.
By the turn of the millennium, however, the idea of femaleness being a passive default option had been toppled by the discovery of genes that actively promote ovarian development and suppress the testicular programme—such as one called WNT4. XY individuals with extra copies of this gene can develop atypical genitals and gonads, and a rudimentary uterus and Fallopian tubes. In 2011, researchers showed that if another key ovarian gene, RSPO1, is not working normally, it causes XX people to develop an ovotestis—a gonad with areas of both ovarian and testicular development."
Plenty more where that came from
klfrs
chill out
There's a specific significance to gene RSPO1 "not working normally" in your quote because the article is about people with DSD.
Your inference is incorrect.
Very occasionally, due to genes not working normally, a lamb is born with two heads.
Why isn't it said sheep have one or two heads?
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Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Who did JKR go "after"?
The sciences of biology and human biology aren't opinion.
She went after all trans women who need to use a public restroom.
“When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman ... then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...gle-sex-spaces-whats-the-furore-idUSKBN23I3AI
In my view, this is nothing more than transphobic fear mongering.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
I claim no authority on this subject. I just do my best to side with anyone who faces discrimination and hardship.
If I were a trans women, and I needed to use a public restroom, where could I go in peace? The men’s room isn’t an option. Does using the lady’s really place a hardship on the women using the space? I don’t know if there has been a poll, but I have to believe the vast majority of women would say no, it does not. And in the reverse situation, I simply can’t imagine any man objecting to a trans man sharing their restroom.
For the record, I believe a trans woman is a woman, and a trans man is a man. There may be biological differences, but for me, that’s not what is important. The important thing for me is identity. It’s how we identify, and how society accepts or rejects our identity, that really matters.
klfrs
chill out
Women and trans women face that, and are both marginalised groups.
The issues touched on are more complex and high risk than than having a wee in public eg women in jail. If you want to increase related knowledge I recommend listening to the voices of a wide range of women and trans women. Especially those you are inclined to disagree with. For the record I have for over three decades, and still do.
I believe harm reduction, and avoiding trampling marginalised groups in a well meaning but ill conceived attempt to lift a marginalised group, should be prioritised. This cuts both ways.
Cheese
Bitter lover
What I read on this subject usually comes from non trans people whose main purpose is to label other people in a way or another for their point of view.
At the uni in Zürich they are currently building a few such rest rooms, after years of pressure from all sides, mostly non trans people again. I don’t know how many trans people work or study there, I guess there are very few. If the rooms will be used, all right, but if they won’t, let’s say that it all was a bit of a storm in a teacup.
At the uni in Zürich they are currently building a few such rest rooms, after years of pressure from all sides, mostly non trans people again. I don’t know how many trans people work or study there, I guess there are very few. If the rooms will be used, all right, but if they won’t, let’s say that it all was a bit of a storm in a teacup.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
I agree that it’s a complex issue. The reason I used public restrooms as an example was because it was one of the more inflammatory things that Rowling tweeted, and you had asked who she was going after.
For me, your last sentence is key. There may be some women who believe that allowing trans women to share their spaces is trampling. There may be some men who agree. I believe they are both a very small minority, and polling could show that. Personally, I have yet to meet a woman who would fall in that minority. If they did, I doubt we’d be close enough friends to discuss something like this.