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indulgence show 2017 29th sept 1st oct

Went to show yesterday, this was my 2nd time, worth a visit but for different reasons from last year. Last year their was for me, two knock out rooms, one with the Greek Pnoe horns (unfortunatly played too loud) and one with the big black PMC speakers, Vertere turntable and FM Acoustic amps.
This year the FM Acoustic room had the same turntable but with FM Acoustic speakers which weren't as clear as the PMCs. But the room had a talk from Miles Showell who has remastered Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. He has used the original tapes but put them into digital files. He has restored an old Neumann cutting lathe. He said the Beatles were only interested in the mono version but the American Market required a stereo version for which they could charge a premium. He said the original stereo version was mastered in a hurry.The talk was very interesting and you could hear where the record has been changed slightly. All the non used portions of tape had been kept , he could hear where they had not mastered the original stereo version properly and could then re-insert the missing bits. It's not my favourite record so I don't think it will add to my enjoyment of the record.
Because of the thread on here about the Kii speakers, I wanted to hear them for myself.
The room had no analogue sound, so I asked for a Native DSD file to be played. He ws demonstrating an Amphion speaker at the time so I heard a soprano voice which sounded pretty good.
Switching to the Kii's the same voice sounded hard, and without fluidity,which was an immediate turn off for me. They may do something else well, but they should find a new tweeter.
The last success, for me, was to have my ear scanned , so some "Snugs" can be made for my in ear phones.
If you go, check out the Seminars, and like me, you probably won't have time for every room.
 
jackbarron said:
I went on Friday afternoon and the exhibition is well put together for the most part. The first place I visited was Ultimate Stream in the St Julien room on the second floor. The Farnham based company were demoing Kii Audio Three Pro speakers linked to an Auralic Aries Streaming G2 Transporter, which is £3899.

When more recent recordings were played during the demo the difference in production values was quite amazing and the Kii's picked up all the little details. This is in part down to the fact that each box has six speakers, three amps and a DAC. There was also active wave focusing going on.

Ultimate Stream have had stands of their own design made. They will retail for £1,100 I believe. The demo room is well worth visiting and you'll get to see a bit of a hi-fi comedy video.
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Indeed. I went yesterday and took in the same demo (GREAT Mel Smith vid to start with). I thought the Kiis were extraordinary and given that they obviate the need for amps, not insanely expensive. Forensic levels of detail, very spacious and they went very, very deep for their size. I heard the Amphion system demmed subsequently and, although it was excellent, it was far, far more expensive. I really do think the Kiis hit a sweet spot that gets you into serious hi-fi without excruciating cost...and your living room isn't cluttered. I don't think the KiiControl really works for a domestic environment but I wouldn't be surprised if they tidy that up in the future (e.g. wireless like the Kef LS50).

One issue with the Kiis is that their own stands cost £900 and it's hard to see why. So, there's an opportunity for a cheaper better stand and I was expecting that from the Quadraspire. Alarmed to find that they cost even more. haha. No Brexit at the show? Sturdy though.

Otherwise fine, fine sounds from the Kudos Titan 707s. I've never heard the ubiquitous "Wish You Were Here" sound better.

Great sounds also from the diminutive Dynaudio Special Forty...but on the end of a large stack of Salisburys finest.

Similarly great sounds from the diminutive PMC twenty5 using some nice AVM amps.

The Naim Nova and Focal combo didn't do it for me: Room was excessively boomy.

Devialet Phantoms sounding like they could thrash my Muso. Two of them though.

There was one room where the huge PMC used were pretty much touching the ceiling. I dread to think what they cost but, given what was in front of me, I was decidedly unimpressed. Much preferred the detail retrieval from the Kiis. I guess there was a ton of room interraction happening with the PMCs given the ratio of speaker to environment.

Rounded off the day with a very enjoyable NEMS vinyl rendition of Sabbath Bloody Sabbath in the Halo room. I snuck in whithout the rep noticing me at first and he was really giving it some headbanging; really, really great to see someone into the music. There was far too much smooth hi-fi jazz show muzak in most of the rooms.

One thing really pi*sed me off and that was the continuous loud chatter from the reps in many of the rooms, at least 50% of whom couldn't be arsed demming. It was Friday afternoon and very, very light on members of the public, so it was (loud) catch up time for all the reps. It was hilarious to enter the Yamaha room, sit down, try to listen, and then have to give up because the schoolgirl rep was telling everyone at the back what she had at Nando's last night...all while they completely ignored the fact that Paul Messenger was in the front row (just me and him trying to listen), trying to take notes. I doubt there'll be a good write up there. hahaha.
 
SteveH said:
I don't think the KiiControl really works for a domestic environment but I wouldn't be surprised if they tidy that up in the future (e.g. wireless like the Kef LS50) ...

There was one room where the huge PMC used were pretty much touching the ceiling. I dread to think what they cost but, given what was in front of me, I was decidedly unimpressed. Much preferred the detail retrieval from the Kiis. I guess there was a ton of room interraction happening with the PMCs given the ratio of speaker to environment.
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Completely agree with you about the Kii Control.

I looked in the PMC room with the floor to ceiling speakers and didn't go any further. The thought of being pummelled by them didn't appeal at all.

Jack
 
the chap from Farnham played a brilliant mancini track on the kii 3 at brum show . it was superb . detail and enjoyment from such a little box in bucketloads . we have been playing mancini stuff all week at hifinutt towers . I didn`t like the quad stands though , prefer something a bit more substantial
 
Lovely show, where they did a lot of inventive things. E.g the FM Acoustics room playing a live band through their system, Audio Note bringing in their cellist with backing accompaniment through their system, also the stunning music photography exhibition.

Will write more soon.

Andrew
 
I agree, very enjoyable, nice relaxed atmosphere, not to crowded, some good live music. Some of the rooms were very good, I'd certainly think about going next year.
 
hifinutt said:
the chap from Farnham played a brilliant mancini track on the kii 3 at brum show . it was superb . detail and enjoyment from such a little box in bucketloads
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Yes, so much so that I felt complelled to ask what resolution the track was but it was simply 16/44.1 via Tidal. Fantastic sound. I am working out how to afford a pair.
 
SteveH said:
Yes, so much so that I felt complelled to ask what resolution the track was but it was simply 16/44.1 via Tidal. Fantastic sound. I am working out how to afford a pair.
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I heard that one as well and was surprised that it was coming via Tidal. The detail was pretty amazing.

Jack
 
Their design, controlled directivity and cardioid response simply means you hear more of the music, they are superb loudspeakers.
Keith
 
Enjoyed the show. Some observations:

Went primarily to see hear the Kii THREE, and spent a good twenty minutes in their room. Very impressive, scarily detailed and pinpoint imaging, but at times almost painful to listen to. Two things that I found weird was that the soundstage had no "height" to it. Difficult to explain, I know, but if you can imagine stretching a piece of string from top to top of the speakers and likewise another from bottom to bottom, then all of the sound appeared to be emanating from the bit between the strings. The other thing I noticed what that if anybody got up and walked around at the front (I was at the back, slightly off axis) then there was a momentary change in sound, almost although it had gone out of phase for a second and then came back. When it happened the first time I thought I must be imagining things, but after the third or fourth occurrence, I even asked one of the demonstrators whether they were doing room compensation "on the fly", but apparently not. Very strange.

Went to the KEF & Arcam Dolby Atmos demos. Again very impressive. The Arcam chap did a demo of a thunderstorm with, and without, EQ. Very interesting.

Naim/Focal were very underwhelming, but had an interesting setup with two sets of speakers (same model) but one on some sort of isolation feet. They could switch between the two in real time, and the effect of the feet was very noticeable, and for the better, especially in the bass region. In fact the difference was so marked that at first I thought they were two different models of speaker.

Kudos something or others. Nicely understated after the fireworks of the Kii & Atmos systems and just got on with the job of playing music.

Dynaudio had a stand mount driven by Naim. Nice enough but I prefer the larger floor-mounts.

Innuos tried to convince me that the Zenith SE was better than the Zenith, but I couldn't tell them apart.

The rest was the usual mix of good stuff and 'uh, OK'.

Always enjoy the music in the Longdog room - '70s rock and a "blistering" John McLaughlin album that I must get buy (Shakti - Natural Elements, I think).

Quite taken with KEF wireless speakers (LS50?).

Enjoyed the talk by the two "old buqqer" recording engineers (being myself an OB from that same era!), and stayed past my intended departure time and so missed a train connection LOL.

The live music (various) was enjoyable.

Very few people though for an audio show - are shows on their last legs, I wonder? And the "indulgences bit" is quite frankly a waste of space.

Rounded the day off by meeting Daughter No. 2 and partner at Honest Burger in Clapham for a chilli burger with rosemary flavoured chips - lovely!

Heard what may be the best announcement ever while stood at Fareham station "We're sorry to announce that the blah from London Victoria is delayed by nine minutes due to the police pursuing suspects on the tracks" - even trumps Reggie Perrin's "Badger ate the junction box at New Malden" :):)
 
suzywong said:
Enjoyed the show. Some observations:

Went primarily to see hear the Kii THREE, and spent a good twenty minutes in their room. Very impressive, scarily detailed and pinpoint imaging, but at times almost painful to listen to. Two things that I found weird was that the soundstage had no "height" to it. Difficult to explain, I know, but if you can imagine stretching a piece of string from top to top of the speakers and likewise another from bottom to bottom, then all of the sound appeared to be emanating from the bit between the strings. The other thing I noticed what that if anybody got up and walked around at the front (I was at the back, slightly off axis) then there was a momentary change in sound, almost although it had gone out of phase for a second and then came back. When it happened the first time I thought I must be imagining things, but after the third or fourth occurrence, I even asked one of the demonstrators whether they were doing room compensation "on the fly", but apparently not. Very strange.
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I noticed a similar thing also with the Kii3. Asked about where they had set up the sweet spot and went and sat there. Sound stage was slightly better but if you got up and moved around then the soundstage changed in a peculiar way. This is probably due to the DSP/room correction. I thought the sound stage was very flat, but more importantly the music sounded thin and bleached, as if it had all the soul and emotion sucked out. It just reminded me of muzak playing in an old department store.

Went into the LongDog room where Nick was using some Graham Audio LS5/9's, MFA plus his own electronics and what a difference, music with emotion. The same was in the Audionote room, and the CAD/Trilogy room which were both great sounding rooms. Also a nice sound was emanating from the Air Audio room where they were playing some nice recordings by STS Digital both on tape and on high quality vinyl.

There was also some realistic sounds coming from the Vertere room where they were majoring on analogue through their top turntable and FM Acoustics electronics in a very nicely appointed room. All the equipment was very nicely made and presented. Also good to see the latest iteration of the DPS turntable, I believe it was in the Kudos room.

The show brought back memories when I exhibited at this hotel back in 1999 and 2000 where about 12,000 people attended and the corridors were completely rammed, especially on the public days.
The Indulgence Show is a very nice show but it is distinctly worrying about the low numbers in attendance. A sign of the times I guess...
 
Observations from Friday

I remember the venue from when Hi Fi News was there back in the day and remember thinking how confusing and rubbish it was.

The best thing about it as a resident of NW London is not having to schlep out to Heathrow or worse Milton Keynes.

The signage in the hotel was good and the staff seemed pleasant and helpful.

The drink and food was the usual hotel over priced nonsense, I mean £3.00 for a coffee!!

Mind you this is easily avoided; a decent cappuccino cost £2.00 from the cafe at the top of the road.

As for the show itself, I thought was very sparsely attended, at one stage I felt like the only punter on the 3rd floor.

The exception was the Headroom part which whilst not crowded had enough people to stop the reps being lonely.
Maybe this is an indication of where the business is going.

Not sure of the point of the Pure Pleasure zone, I mean who goes to a Hi Fi show to buy honey or candles?

The guy from Diverse Vinyl was very lonely stuck in a corner.

Not being headphones / portable player kinda guy I can’t comment on what was there except for:

I really liked the design of the Luzli Roller phones made to resemble a Swiss Watch though at the price of £2k plus would buy some top line in ears.

The Metaxas skull headphone amp was amusing for 30 seconds but then the idea just annoyed me.

It’s the same with their amps and speakers I wonder how much of the considerable cost is taken up making a fancy case and are the insides anything special.

At that price point they must be fishing in a very small pond.

Overall the sound was not worth the entry fee, a case of style over substance.

Was intrigued by the Kii a lot of technology in a small space and although the cost is not inconsiderable – 10.5k – you can appreciate where it goes.

I found them detailed but somewhat clinical.

They would fit in my room unlike the massive Amphions they were also demoing that I preferred.

It seemed like you couldn’t turn round without tripping over PMC in one guise or another.

I thought the monster PMC was overblown and needs to stand at one end of a barn conversion, but then it still will be ugly; I suppose it betrays the pro heritage. One for retired rock stars.

The heralded launch of the PMC Cor seemed restricted to one in a perspex case.

Devialet Phantoms failed to impress me again it’s like they have decided let’s get a much bass as possible in small space and hang the rest. Would have to hear them with a piano trio.

The trouble is the callow youths they employ, Westfield White City and the pop up at St Pancras as well, believe it’s all about BPM’s!!

Emotiva has bang for buck in spades or so I was told by the salesmen giving it the hard sell packed with three letter acronyms.

That said the pair of monoblocks “competitively priced “at 2.9K were not unattractive if you like your boxes big and beefy.

The Dynaudio special Forty showed what can done with decent standmount, £2.5k seemed about right

3 Square Audio had an intriguing proposition, the floorstander and standmount cost the same and when asked said they like to demo both as people like one or the other depending on the room size.

I found them a relaxing listen with acoustic material but perversely would be interested in hear them with some BPM’s!!

At £2.8k they stack up against the Dynaudio but I’m afraid I know who has the bigger marketing reach.

A good way to spend a September Friday, but not sure it will be there next year.
 
SteveH said:
Yes, so much so that I felt complelled to ask what resolution the track was but it was simply 16/44.1 via Tidal. Fantastic sound. I am working out how to afford a pair.
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by the time you get rid of all your power amps , pre amps , dacs etc and have something to control the volume with i guess the price is reasonable .
 
Some very interesting comments, especially about the Kii. Did anyone ask how the Kii were setup? As I understand it they have varying degrees of cardoid response shenanigans that can be set, and I bet it is this that made them sound odd when people moved in their vicinity. I’d have liked to hear the difference between the minimum and maximum settings (maybe with some Kraftwerk). They don’t have room correction, so it is the digital cardoid emulation that is the USP here, and none of it is on the fly, just response presets. MEG are able to do this cardoid thing just with acoustic cabinet design somehow and I’d very much like to hear those too. It is an interesting subject and one I have no real opinion on yet as I’ve yet to hear any of the contenders.
 
The cardioid response remains constant you can adjust the amount of bass sub 80Hz to adjust for wall corner reinforcement.
Keith
 
Tony L said:
Some very interesting comments, especially about the Kii. Did anyone ask how the Kii were setup?
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When I asked, the only comment was that they'd been "set up for the room" when they were installed.

And Tony, if you'd wanted Kraftwerk then the KEF Atmos demo would have been for you. Kraftwerk, Kraftwerk and more bl00dy Kraftwerk*. Later on, I did catch the sequence from Mission Impossible where Mr Cruise is hanging from the A400, but then it was back to......yup, Kraftwerk!

* don't get me wrong, I quite like Kraftwerk (but really more of a TD sort of person), but I thought they could have tried something else as well. :)
 
G T Audio said:
I noticed a similar thing also with the Kii3. I thought the sound stage was very flat, but more importantly the music sounded thin and bleached, as if it had all the soul and emotion sucked out. It just reminded me of muzak playing in an old department store.
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Not what I heard at all. I thought they were thrilling, enough to make the hairs on the back of my neck bristle. I heard emotion conveyed +++

I see you are a Trade member? Do you stock the Kiis? I'm guessing probably not...

As ever, we will all have to hear for ourselves for an unbiased view, preferably in our own homes. For me, it's the first bit of kit I've heard in a decade that has made me sit up and take notice enough to consider parting with large amounts of cash, especially when compared to the cost of other systems at the show. The Goldmund active speakers were 50K.
 
I’d definitely recommend a home demo of the Kii Three’s. I listened to them on Friday and I wanted to like them. However I can sum up their sound in one word - sterile! A big disappointment and as GT Audio said above, flat and lacking emotion. The Amphion’s, that also have a cardioid response, did it better.
 
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