How Long Before A Vote Of No Confidence In Johnson Government?

[Seanm]

I thought you said that Labour couldn't stop Brexit?

Not in opposition. They can if they're in government - at least if enough people want to stop it: they've promised a referendum with remain on the ballot.

 

[Nick_G]

Not in opposition. They can if they're in government - at least if enough people want to stop it: they've promised a referendum with remain on the ballot.

And if there was a snap general election, what would their position be then? Remain?

 

[Seanm]

I thought politics in this country was people making up their own minds and voting freely without being told which way they should think.

One of the most oppressive techniques of totalitarian governments is to go on hifi forums and remind people of the regrettable implications of the first past the post system.

Vote for who you want, no-one's going to burn your house down for it. But if the Tories get in again you get a no deal Brexit, and if they don't you get a referendum, and if Brexit's a concern you should probably bear that in mind.

 

[Seanm]

And if there was a snap general election, what would their position be then? Remain?

My personal position is already remain. In a snap election the only position that practically matters is who can form a government that offers a referendum. Everything else is just a test of ideological purity.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Conversely if Labour truly cared about the poor they would agree to revoke article 50 and stay in the EU as a matter of policy in order to unite the anti-Brexit parties against the Conservatives and Brexit.

Works the other way around.

Politics in the UK is simple. You are for or against Brexit. Until we resolve that there are no other issues. Labour is at the moment neither.

 

[maxflinn]

Article 50 can't be revoked unless to remain is the result of another referendum.

 

[Seanm]

Conversely if Labour truly cared about the poor they would agree to revoke article 50 and stay in the EU as a matter of policy in order to unite the anti-Brexit parties against the Conservatives and Brexit.

Works the other way around.

Politics in the UK is simple. You are for or against Brexit. Until we resolve that there are no other issues. Labour is at the moment neither.

Labour in government will offer a referendum, which will probably stop Brexit. The only thing a commitment to revoke would do is decrease the likelihood of forming a government. All these tests of purity. Just totally counterproductive, dangerous.

 

[Swamp Thing]

Article 50 can't be revoked unless to remain is the result of another referendum.

Wrong.

 

[maxflinn]

Wrong.

OK, technically I probably am wrong, but the point is that realistically, no government will revoke it without a mandate, and that mandate would need to be in the form of a remain win in a second referendum.

 

[Swamp Thing]

OK, technically I probably am wrong, but the point is that realistically, no government will revoke it without a mandate, and that mandate would need to be in the form of a remain win in a second referendum.

Completely wrong.

All of the non-Brexit parties (i.e. everyone except Labour and Conservative) have a policy of revoke article 50. All they need is a majority in Parliament for the vote. Given that there are a lot of remainers in Labour and the Conservatives they might get it.

Just need to find a way to get it in a bill.

 

[NeilR]

Labour in government will offer a referendum, which will probably stop Brexit. The only thing a commitment to revoke would do is decrease the likelihood of forming a government. All these tests of purity. Just totally counterproductive, dangerous.

The trouble is, with all of the dithering, fence sitting and facing two ways at once for the last few years, many people don’t actually trust what Labour are saying on brexit any more.

JC has blown it quite frankly and for many people, if Labour want to be trusted again on brexit they need a new leader from the remain wing if the party.

 

[Brian]

The trouble with FPTP is that it encourages this sort of thinking. Labour have got it so wrong they’ve lost the support of millions of voters. I’d only vote for them at the next election if it’s a tight race between Labour and the Brexit Party. Otherwise I reserve my right to use my vote to protest at the interminable fence sitting which has led partly to the mess we’re in. JC won’t be Prime Minister, I’d like another hung parliament, with Lib/Lab/SNP/PC/Green able to form a majority coalition. That may though be pie in the sky thinking. Hopefully that would lead to electoral reform where how you voted genuinely mattered.

In that case, have your meaningless protest but don’t complain at a hard brexit and a tory govt, since you’re helping enable it.

By the way, the tories are responsible for the mess we’re in, along with the sell-out LibDems and to some extent, UKIP. That Labour hasn’t done exactly what you want gets in the way of the facts.

It is too late for electoral reform, that opportunity was thrown away by the wonderful LibDems, that for some reason you want to see in govt.

 

[Brian]

The trouble is, with all of the dithering, fence sitting and facing two ways at once for the last few years, many people don’t actually trust what Labour are saying on brexit any more.

JC has blown it quite frankly and for many people, if Labour want to be trusted again on brexit they need a new leader from the remain wing if the party.

He may well have blown it but only for hard-remainers.

The real reason people like you don’t trust Labour is b/c they did not immediately adopt a policy of ignoring the result of the referendum. Nothing to do with “facing two ways” and “fence sitting”. It’s b/c they did not immediately pledge to give you what you want.

 

[Brian]

So are the Labour zealots really suggesting that we should vote for them just because they're not Tories? Is that the only thing going for them? Bit of a piss poor affair if that's all you've got.

No. Who said that?

Read the manifesto. Compare it with the others. If you find you prefer the tory one over Labour then go for it, just don’t complain at what they do.

 

[Joe]

Politics in the UK is simple. You are for or against Brexit. .

It's not a binary choice for me.

I am 'for' a complete reform of the EU and no one is offering that. As far as I am concerned...a plague on all their houses.

There should be many more referendums in Europe on many more of the issues that the Commission propose ( European Army ? ffs ) but we won't get them because a) we are 'ruled' by people like who are like Tony Blair and whom seem to have an utter contempt for the voters and , b) they know that they will lose those referendums ( Lisbum Treaty etc. )

The EU seems to be becoming a twisted form of benign dictatorship through a watered down lip-service to democracy... a democracy so remote as to be meaningless. All that is ever discussed on here is ' you are either Tory or Labour ( or an idiot ) '

The benefits of being in the EU are given as .... " it's led to peace since WWII ( it hasn't ) " " it's a large free trade area .. ( you would have to define 'free' because it isn't ) and ( the great Labour shibboleth "} it protect workers rights".... can't Labour protect workers right?...are they that useless a political party that they can't even manage that?
I think that the majority of remainers just like Europe because they like the idea that they can travel around Europe on their holidays un-impinged by the need for visa's and currency changing hassles .

The Tories have long since lost any semblance of being human.... I wonder what the old school ( admittedly patronising ) Tory grandees think of the party now ?
Labour are a shambles.... it used to be the Tories that constantly tore themselves apart internally. Now thats all Labour seem to do.

Whatever happens with regard to 'out or remain ?' this country desperately need voting reform. The two main parties are not fit for purpose.

 

[Seanm]

Completely wrong.

All of the non-Brexit parties (i.e. everyone except Labour and Conservative) have a policy of revoke article 50. All they need is a majority in Parliament for the vote. Given that there are a lot of remainers in Labour and the Conservatives they might get it.

Just need to find a way to get it in a bill.

Good plan:

1. Say “We’ll stop Brexit!”
2. *waves hand dismissively* Some plan that will increase number of seats from 52 to 322
3. Stop Brexit!

Super Best Friends are go!

Alternatively, since there is no chance whatsoever of this plan not handing Boris Johnson and his Grand Wizards a majority, vote Labour, then vote Remain in the referendum they’ve promised.

 

[TheDecameron]

We’re having another Enablerfest. Who’s headlining this morning? My money’s on The Hard Remainers on the Diversion stage.

 

[Seanm]

The trouble is, with all of the dithering, fence sitting and facing two ways at once for the last few years, many people don’t actually trust what Labour are saying on brexit any more.

JC has blown it quite frankly and for many people, if Labour want to be trusted again on brexit they need a new leader from the remain wing if the party.

Are you imputing this mistrust to others or is it your own? Because I don’t believe that anyone really believes that having so painfully put together sustainable support for a referendum, at considerable cost, he’s just going to welch. It’s completely implausible to anyone who’s been paying attention.

 

[NeilR]

Are you imputing this mistrust to others or is it your own?

Well, by liking my post, it seems that at least four others agree with my mistrust!

 

[maxflinn]

Sean, I've noticed less Corbyn comparisons with Farage, Banks, Stalin, Pol-Pot etc on here over the last few weeks, so there's a definite change, albeit a very slow one.

Give it a few more weeks....