How Long Before A Vote Of No Confidence In Johnson Government?

[Seanm]

Not if Labour get into power and Corbyn negotiates a Brexit deal. He hasn't said there will be a referendum with Remain on the ballot for this.

Will Hutton says in The Guardian that the opposition parties must come together to save the UK from a calamitous future:

"Labour has to make the case for Remain as the base for a wider common programme that it will negotiate with the Liberal Democrats, Greens and even dissident liberal Tories. Nationalist parties in Scotland and Wales should be welcomed to sign up; the promise will be a federal Britain inside the EU. They may refuse, but many of their voters will not." https://www.theguardian.com/comment...4iPeto9HzhsyC3YhgKJDxxGlehNmAu_BUO0ChjWkYeZL8

Johnson knows exactly what he is doing and has filled his Cabinet with hard Brexiteers, some of whom have been kicked out before. There will be no climb down. Michael Gove said today the government assumes a No Deal Brexit will take place and they are preparing for it.

I don't think Corbyn is dithering any more. His position is vote for me, I'll negotiate a new Brexit deal and you won't have the opportunity to confirm you want it.

He's a mug If he assumes the supporters who have defected will come back to Labour. This makes him and Labour the Tory enablers. What a sad state of affairs.

Jack

Yes he has.

 

[ff1d1l]

Yes he has.

Unambiguous linky please...

 

[jackbarron]

Yes he has.

Where and when? As ff1d1l has said, let's have a link.

NeilR has pointed out Corbyn refuses to support Remain across the board. The Labour leader made this clear on the Sophie Ridge Show today.

"Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour is ready to fight an election campaign against Boris Johnson but refused to express a preference between leaving with a Labour-negotiated deal or staying in the EU." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/28/corbyn-worried-boris-johnson-election-labour-brexit

Jack

 

[stevec67]

If you want to be seen to be caring about the parts of the North of England that have been forgotten, why would you go to Manchester which AIUI is in receipt of significant investment? Surely, it would be better to be seen in somewhere like Redcar, Hartlepool or Whitehaven.

You would put the money into Manchester rather than hartlepool and Grimsby because you could spend a Brazilian pounds on Grimsby and it would still look like Grimsby. Manchester will look good if you spend a tenner on it and there is less risk of the locals saying "Reckons that he's spent millions here, I can't see where, it's still a dump" .

 

[Seanm]

Where and when? As ff1d1l has said, let's have a link.

NeilR has pointed out Corbyn refuses to support Remain across the board. The Labour leader made this clear on the Sophie Ridge Show today.

"Jeremy Corbyn has said Labour is ready to fight an election campaign against Boris Johnson but refused to express a preference between leaving with a Labour-negotiated deal or staying in the EU." https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/28/corbyn-worried-boris-johnson-election-labour-brexit

Jack

I can’t find Corbyn’s statement- best I can do right now is this, which also explains the position above.

Any incoming government with a commitment to a public vote would have three options: Remain versus no deal, Remain versus Theresa May’s deal; or Remain versus something else. Only Labour has faced this question realistically. We have a duty to consider the UK’s best interests and provide detail – not merely shout into the void or present fantasy options.

Option one would be terrifying. The idea that a Labour government – indeed any government – could offer the chaos of a no deal Brexit, spelling economic catastrophe and shortages of essentials, would be wholly irresponsible and dangerous. No deal is the antithesis of Labour values and we should never entertain it.

Option two, whilst significantly better than offering no deal, is still fraught with problems. Putting forward a deal that has been rejected by parliament three times, by all sides of the debate, is fatally flawed. We are living in a post-Theresa May world and all parties need to face that reality.

This leaves us with a vacuum that must be filled. The public vote we have supported in parliament is a confirmatory referendum – not just for Remain voters, but to allow Leave voters a chance to confirm the deal negotiated between a UK government and the EU.

This is the only viable public vote. Realpolitik dictates that new negotiations must take place after any new government is formed, whether before or after a general election. Any deal agreed must go back to the people. This is the only realistic formula. This is Labour’s position.

https://labourlist.org/2019/07/labours-public-vote-position-is-the-only-realistic-option/

 

[Joe Hutch]

All of which is along the lines of 'if my uncle had tits he'd be my aunt'. There ain't gonna be no 'incoming government with a commitment to a public vote', and as things stand there ain't gonna be no 'deal negotiated between a UK government and the EU' on which to hold a confirmatory referendum. So now what?

 

[Seanm]

All of which is along the lines of 'if my uncle had tits he'd be my aunt'. There ain't gonna be no 'incoming government with a commitment to a public vote', and as things stand there ain't gonna be no 'deal negotiated between a UK government and the EU' on which to hold a confirmatory referendum. So now what?

They will militate for a public vote with remain on ballot on any deal that Johnson proposes, including no deal.

 

[jackbarron]

I can’t find Corbyn’s statement- best I can do right now is this, which also explains the position above. https://labourlist.org/2019/07/labours-public-vote-position-is-the-only-realistic-option/

The Labourlist link says "Realpolitik dictates that new negotiations must take place after any new government is formed, whether before or after a general election. Any deal agreed must go back to the people. This is the only realistic formula. This is Labour’s position."

In theory this means if Labour gets into power, and did a Brexit Deal, it would go to the public for a confirmatory vote.

Why doesn't Corbyn state this? He's had plenty of opportunity. One gets the impression he is deliberately shying away from it and this is why people don't trust him.

I was really excited when Corbyn became leader. Now I think he is going to ruin Labour for a generation and help to enforce Brexit, a Tory policy idea.

Jack

 

[ff1d1l]

I can’t find Corbyn’s statement- best I can do right now is this, which also explains the position above.



https://labourlist.org/2019/07/labours-public-vote-position-is-the-only-realistic-option/

I don't think that fulfills what I was asking for, seanm, but many thanks for trying.
I just wish you had been able to be succesful.

 

[Seanm]

The Labourlist link says "Realpolitik dictates that new negotiations must take place after any new government is formed, whether before or after a general election. Any deal agreed must go back to the people. This is the only realistic formula. This is Labour’s position."

In theory this means if Labour gets into power, and did a Brexit Deal, it would go to the public for a confirmatory vote.

Why doesn't Corbyn state this? He's had plenty of opportunity. One gets the impression he is deliberately shying away from it and this is why people don't trust him.

I was really excited when Corbyn became leader. Now I think he is going to ruin Labour for a generation and help to enforce Brexit, a Tory policy idea.

Jack

It’s out there somewhere, buried. He’s concerned with maximising the legitimacy of a move that many people - MPs, trade unionists, ordinary members and supporters - consider undemocratic, and he’s not keen on executive decisions at the best of times (something those accusing him of Stalinism actually find most unforgivable). That’s the position but it will be tightened up and hammered home when the manifesto’s launched.

Does anyone seriously expect remain not to be on a Labour-sponsored referendum ballot paper?

 

[ff1d1l]

Does anyone seriously expect remain not to be on a Labour-sponsored referendum ballot paper?

I think corbyn would try it on, yes.

 

[jackbarron]

Does anyone seriously expect remain not to be on a Labour-sponsored referendum ballot paper?

I don't believe there will be a Labour-sponsored referendum, if the Party gets into power and negotiates a Brexit Deal. It would take Corbyn five seconds to say there would be and he hasn't. He keeps getting questioned about it as well.

Jack

 

[Brian]

Not if Labour get into power and Corbyn negotiates a Brexit deal. He hasn't said there will be a referendum with Remain on the ballot for this.
<snip>

Jack

Yes he has.

Unambiguous linky please...

Where and when? As ff1d1l has said, let's have a link.
<snip>
Jack

I don't think that fulfills what I was asking for, seanm, but many thanks for trying.
I just wish you had been able to be succesful.

It was on Channel 4 News according to Jack, though this would be stupid of Labour anyway, also according to Jack.

[Jack said ]
According to Channel 4 News, today's stance by the unions and Labour is a bit more complicated. If Labour win a general election, they will go back to the EU and negotiate a Brexit deal.

When the deal is agreed, Labour will take it to the country for a second Referendum. They will however campaign for Remain.

In other words Labour will go against the Brexit deal they have negotiated with the EU.

This is a perfect Corbynite policy. I mean how stupid can you get?

Do I trust them? Do I ferk.

Source : https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/thr...staying-in-the-eu.186995/page-14#post-3711082

So Corbyn hasn’t actually said remain will be on the ballot paper, but why does he have to if this story from CH4 is true? Perhaps remainers here think a Labour govt will allow a second referendum, campaign for remain but not have remain on the paper? I know people don’t like Labour...

 

[ff1d1l]

Perhaps remainers here think a Labour govt will allow a second referendum, campaign for remain but not have remain on the paper? I know people don’t like Labour...

Such a masterpiece of constructive ambiguity that would be. How could corbyn resist?

 

[lordsummit]

It’s out there somewhere, buried. He’s concerned with maximising the legitimacy of a move that many people - MPs, trade unionists, ordinary members and supporters - consider undemocratic, and he’s not keen on executive decisions at the best of times (something those accusing him of Stalinism actually find most unforgivable). That’s the position but it will be tightened up and hammered home when the manifesto’s launched.

Does anyone seriously expect remain not to be on a Labour-sponsored referendum ballot paper?

What you describe sounds rather like the antithesis of good leadership. Meanwhile time is ticking desperately away, and the Tories have installed a populist Trumpian leader...

How many working days until the 31st of Oct?

 

[jackbarron]

So Corbyn hasn’t actually said remain will be on the ballot paper, but why does he have to if this story from CH4 is true? Perhaps remainers here think a Labour govt will allow a second referendum, campaign for remain but not have remain on the paper? I know people don’t like Labour...

Channel 4 reported that if Labour got into power it would negotiate a Brexit Deal, hold a Referendum and campaign to Remain. I mean how stupid can you get?

No wonder Corbyn won't say if he would be in favour of Brexit or Remain in such a situation.

Corbyn's fence sitting is a deliberate ploy. He wants to win the General Election and implement Brexit as much as Johnson, Farage and the rest of the EU haters.

Corbyn has been playing the same game since before the Referendum, when it took him months to make two lukewarm pro-EU speeches.

The guy is a ****er.

Jack

 

[TheDecameron]

Channel 4 reported that if Labour got into power it would negotiate a Brexit Deal, hold a Referendum and campaign to Remain. I mean how stupid can you get?

No wonder Corbyn won't say if he would be in favour of Brexit or Remain in such a situation.

Corbyn's fence sitting is a deliberate ploy. He wants to win the General Election and implement Brexit as much as Johnson, Farage and the rest of the EU haters.

Corbyn has been playing the same game since before the Referendum, when it took him months to make two lukewarm pro-EU speeches.

The guy is a ****er.

Jack

I think Labour are on a shaky peg. Their proposition seems to be ‘elect us and where ever you stand on Brexit, don’t worry we’ll sort something out luv’. Their potential votes have been cast to the four winds. It’s the most insane strategy I can imagine in the current climate. I know where my party stands, no ifs no buts. Labour could well be heading for the fabled extinction event in Scotland.

 

[jackbarron]

I think Labour are on a shaky peg. Their proposition seems to be ‘elect us and where ever you stand on Brexit, don’t worry we’ll sort something out luv’. Their potential votes have been cast to the four winds. It’s the most insane strategy I can imagine in the current climate. I know where my party stands, no ifs no buts. Labour could well be heading for the fabled extinction event in Scotland.

Exactly.

Jack

 

[TheDecameron]

Such a masterpiece of constructive ambiguity that would be. How could corbyn resist?

What part of 3D chess don’t you understand?

 

[Seanm]

What you describe sounds rather like the antithesis of good leadership. Meanwhile time is ticking desperately away, and the Tories have installed a populist Trumpian leader...

How many working days until the 31st of Oct?

I think quite a lot of the distrust and contempt with regard to Corbyn has to do with expectations about leadership. I'm no expert but people do talk about different leadership styles, e.g. Blair was presidential, leading by inspirational example and executive decision. Corbyn's style is clearly more consensual. It's frustrating for those expecting something else, and especially if someone's looking for reassurance in the face of what they see as a crisis. Personally I think consensus-building is a necessary skill in any mass political party, since they're all coalitions, and particularly important for the Labour Party at a time when the balance of power between its main elements (PLP, membership, unions) is shifting. And it's even more important when you're trying to over-rule a plebiscite: it's worth risking the appearance of indecision to avoid that of high-handedness, given the situation. Not a time for Blair's presidentialism.

I've said it before but Labour's current position - and I did say some time ago that this is where they'd end up - is not sustainable unless the PLP, unions and the membership have bought into it. Only the membership have been solidly remain right from the start, and even they would have had a problem with the referendum simply being ignored.

A Labour leader right now needs an understanding of the big picture (i.e. necessity of change and how to accomplish it), resilience (since the attacks are relentless) and a capacity to build consensus, especially between the membership and the unions. Of course there's some other stuff that would be nice to have, but the PLP doesn't exactly offer a wealth of talent so it's a case of making do with the essentials until the new crop get a bit more experience.