No one and I mean no one is as busy as this guy makes out if he is that busy then he’s way too cheap.
Disastrous and disruptive central heating installation; where to now?
- Thread starter Mike Reed
- Start date
No one and I mean no one is as busy as this guy makes out if he is that busy then he’s way too cheap.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Thanks for that novel idea, Gavin, , although coving would have to go where pipes run and an arch would need to be drilled through etc. However, this would entail new pipework around the periphery of the extended l/room and around the capacious kit/diner plus into the hall. There are already pipes feeding upstairs rads between ceiling and floorboards which could be tacked on to.
I hadn't thought of effectively replacing upstairs pipework too (although much is quite old) but your suggestion merits investigation for sure.
I've little doubt that he'd like to, except that (a) there's more work for him in his slack period and (b) he's still responsible, I s'pose, for his installation, and (c) that's a hell of a way to create a new business now only a year old, and (d) his 'mentor' plumber, who registered the boiler and is old school, might be a bit miffed, as he still does work for my sister and me and was very recently handed more work upon her recommendation.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
He wasn't in my case, Tony, as I had 2 previous, albeit slightly different quotes and he certainly wasn't cheaper ( as you hinted when I itemised the goods). I phoned him yesterday but his phone number wasn't recognised (may new phone, new number?), so I left an urgent message with his mate. My next move if I don't hear anything tomorrow is to contact the 'mentor' plumber, who is actually the plumber's landlord and passes over work.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Stop press! Plumber has just emailed me to say he'll phone me tomorrow. Glory be; think I might just go and have a good listening session; few and far apart these fraught days ! Shall update all you kind souls upon anything concrete (!) emerging from that.
Glimmer of hope time !!!!
Glimmer of hope time !!!!
Simple economics Mike if you're are too busy charge more it's a supply and demand thing innit?
I'm never ever too busy I charge enough to make a decent living and provide really good customer service which customers are happy with and are happy to pay for.
I'm only as busy as I want to be although in saying the above if you charge too much then you probably won't get much work so you just dial the prices back to compete I'm lucky though I've been running my own business for 33 years so have quite an extensive client list, sometimes I get people contacting me that I've not worked for in twenty odd years I find that quite satisfying then I rediscover why I've not work for them for so long
venton
pfm Member
Do you mean isolate each radiator? That wouldn't isolate a leak, the water just carries on past a turned off radiator.
I was assuming the leak's in the matrix under the floor?
Aye it probably is but isolating individual rads won’t tell you where the leak is as pointed out above by @venton
Mike Reed
pfm Member
I've been running my own business for 33 years so have quite an extensive client list, sometimes I get people contacting me that I've not worked for in twenty odd years I find that quite satisfying then I rediscover why I've not work for them for so long
Accolade time. Solid foundations indeed. Pity I can't move my leak to Bonnie Scotland and you're far too established to move darn sarf.
The more this goes on, the more clarity emerges re. the solution. I'm never rash (doesn't work for me; errors occur) and if anything I overdo the caution bit. My exp. tank was cleaned out by me 18 months ago (had been done a couple of previous times, years apart).
One of the plumbers told me on installation that the tank was clean (he was up there and I took him at his word). Before sealant was put in nearly 4 weeks ago I fully cleaned the tank which had a fair thickness of rust-coloured residue on the bottom + sides. Have just been up and there's a coating of the same on the bottom of the tank. The milky sealant mix is now clear so all is clear.
Bleeding one or two rads at odd times over the past couple of months threw out rusty coloured water after air, but now clear. I think I can deduce from this that (a) the cleaner was very aggressive (Magnclean) and (b) that iron pipes/solder/fittings/whatever under the concrete have been eroding for years but much more recently. Pretty sure I noticed an iron pipe back in '09, but maybe that was for gas; didn't pay attention at the time despite being manually involved in the excavations.
Accolade time. Solid foundations indeed. Pity I can't move my leak to Bonnie Scotland and you're far too established to move darn sarf.
The more this goes on, the more clarity emerges re. the solution. I'm never rash (doesn't work for me; errors occur) and if anything I overdo the caution bit. My exp. tank was cleaned out by me 18 months ago (had been done a couple of previous times, years apart).
One of the plumbers told me on installation that the tank was clean (he was up there and I took him at his word). Before sealant was put in nearly 4 weeks ago I fully cleaned the tank which had a fair thickness of rust-coloured residue on the bottom + sides. Have just been up and there's a coating of the same on the bottom of the tank. The milky sealant mix is now clear so all is clear.
Bleeding one or two rads at odd times over the past couple of months threw out rusty coloured water after air, but now clear. I think I can deduce from this that (a) the cleaner was very aggressive (Magnclean) and (b) that iron pipes/solder/fittings/whatever under the concrete have been eroding for years but much more recently. Pretty sure I noticed an iron pipe back in '09, but maybe that was for gas; didn't pay attention at the time despite being manually involved in the excavations.
Mike as @Ellenor pointed out the constant refilling of the system with fresh water will exacerbate the corrosion process in the system cause you're constantly introducing oxygen to the heating system water, the brown water in the header tank is the corrosion, personally I don't think that the MC3 is aggressive but Fernox 800 is very aggressive don't know if that is available these days, personally I don't introduce a cleaner into the system unless the system water is really dirty and even then I'm pretty much reluctant as it's almost impossible to remove the cleaner and if you stick inhibitor into the system then all you're doing is creating a chemical soup.
This looks a lot better for cleaning systems
https://www.bes.co.uk/fernox-f8-pow...8LxHU_ea_SkCZBVlycGiRDEEAGyAvs0hoCe2sQAvD_BwE
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Thanks; yes, I remember Ellenor posting this and I guess that period of about a month before I was notified of the leak, quite a lot of freshly aerated water would have gone in (average of 80 -100 litres?), plus refilling since, so that would explain that. Very little fresh water has gone in since sealant went in. I do think, though, that all this rust, presumably pushed up into the tank when water hot (but not so hot this last 27 days), does add to uncertainty of the underground pipe-work.
[QUOTE="Mike Reed, post: 4925036, member: 4161" I do think, though, that all this rust, presumably pushed up into the tank when water hot (but not so hot this last 27 days), does add to uncertainty of the underground pipe-work.[/QUOTE]
Aye it's probably coming from the rads Mike as I doubt you've iron pipe-work for the heating circuit all the more reason to re-pipe the heating system and replace the rads.
Aye it's probably coming from the rads Mike as I doubt you've iron pipe-work for the heating circuit all the more reason to re-pipe the heating system and replace the rads.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Thanks, Tony. Sound advice and showing gaps in my thinking, as I'd not considered rads as a cause or problem. I do have quite a mix of old, prob. over 25 y.o.) and new from 2006 + 2009 and now the new bathroom one, so shall bear that in mind. IF I can achieve above-ground pipe-work, at least that heat will be into the living areas.
Aye if you do go down that road Mike then you could pressurise the system that will depend on the boiler though as some boilers don't have an overheat stat or are able to work on a pressurised system.
Did the plumber phone you?
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Unfortunately no, Tony. Quite gutted and also surprised but who knows, there may be a compelling reason come up tomorrow.
notaclue
pfm Member
A warning sign for future reliability, as if you haven't had enough already!
Agree about replacing the old rads if you are getting rust. In hindsight, I should have done that here when boiler was fitted. A false economy to power flush and keep them. I did then replace all but one last summer. Plus new rads work so much better.
Agree about replacing the old rads if you are getting rust. In hindsight, I should have done that here when boiler was fitted. A false economy to power flush and keep them. I did then replace all but one last summer. Plus new rads work so much better.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Yes, some are quite old, but as Ellenor said, the ingress of oxygenated water hasn't done any favours and I doubt there's any inhibitor left in the system. Don't want to go down the trace route, but the leak conditions could be replicated if needed.
Have just spoken to the plumber, who's now fully aware of our situation and is going to get some more sealant as a stop-gap and at the same time survey new routes for overground pipework whilst here. Am awaiting a call back, so some light at the end of the tunnel.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Update 12 days on.
Last Saturday, the plumber put a second lot of Fernox sealant into the Magnaclean (i.e. directly into the system as opposed to header tank last time). We went round discussing routes/ways of bring the htg from upstairs to be above concrete on the ground floor. By moving a hall rad and eliminating another from the living area, this can be done by having just two vertical runs to existing rads, and with only one of these being bare pipe-work (don't want cladding for now).
Sealant progress was optimistic until 2 days ago, with only a drip early morning with flow rate 17/18. Initially to distribute the mix, htg on 30 hours non-stop, but since then, off at night and a few hours during the day. However, last 2 nights have been colder (3 and 4 degrees outside at 0700) and flow rate showing 14 and 15. Leak replenishing mains increased to a continuous drip. Obv., sealant is not going to work fully.
Decision time; Insurance claim for test 'n' trace, but fixing/restitution cost may well be down to me, plus hassle factor/waiting time. Or going the re-piping route (max 1 day, I guess) at prob. a cost slightly < a grand (wife favourite).
I think this could be more efficient, htg wise, with fairly minimal aesthetic impact and I've been told that using 22 mm pipes would help the vertical flow and prevent pump working harder. However, 22 mm is twice the cost of 15mm. Is this worthwhile considering about 24/25 m of new pipework? Thanks, twotone, notaclue, venton, Ellenor and all others contributing helpfully.
Last Saturday, the plumber put a second lot of Fernox sealant into the Magnaclean (i.e. directly into the system as opposed to header tank last time). We went round discussing routes/ways of bring the htg from upstairs to be above concrete on the ground floor. By moving a hall rad and eliminating another from the living area, this can be done by having just two vertical runs to existing rads, and with only one of these being bare pipe-work (don't want cladding for now).
Sealant progress was optimistic until 2 days ago, with only a drip early morning with flow rate 17/18. Initially to distribute the mix, htg on 30 hours non-stop, but since then, off at night and a few hours during the day. However, last 2 nights have been colder (3 and 4 degrees outside at 0700) and flow rate showing 14 and 15. Leak replenishing mains increased to a continuous drip. Obv., sealant is not going to work fully.
Decision time; Insurance claim for test 'n' trace, but fixing/restitution cost may well be down to me, plus hassle factor/waiting time. Or going the re-piping route (max 1 day, I guess) at prob. a cost slightly < a grand (wife favourite).
I think this could be more efficient, htg wise, with fairly minimal aesthetic impact and I've been told that using 22 mm pipes would help the vertical flow and prevent pump working harder. However, 22 mm is twice the cost of 15mm. Is this worthwhile considering about 24/25 m of new pipework? Thanks, twotone, notaclue, venton, Ellenor and all others contributing helpfully.