Disastrous and disruptive central heating installation; where to now?

[The Captain]

Sorry to read this @captain but no completely different systems, are you saying that an air source heat pump has been installed inside the property?

Dammit. I was thinking Mike had the same issue I have- would've helped my case hugely if so.

A heat pump is installed both inside & outside a property, outside being the fan / compressor unit.. & inside the cylinder, rads, &, one other hardware box (called a hydraulic unit) which you are conveniently not told about really pretty much exists @ install. THIS unit.. is the excruciating problem unit. And unknowingly of either it's function or it's fact of emmitting noise at the very time you want to sleep.. it was just put in my spare bed cupboard.

It shouldn't be in the house, whatsoever. Never. If it makes this noise. If it has to be (vaillants pathetic argument to me, also that "you're the only one with the issue" which I simply cannot possibly be, but have found no-one else in the same boat) put inside the house, as they tell me it does, it should NEVER be put in a bedroom.. but sited as far away from bedrooms, as possible. Full stop. No argument.

It's only ever the outside unit that is reported to make any noise, which A) isn't intrusively loud at all to be of a nuisance even if I had a semi-detatched (I don't) with neighbours metres away.. & B ) is outside, so even if it did make more noise than it does, wouldn't likely affect bedrooms/ sleeping, being on a floor above & inside.

This vile "hydraulic unit" that's ruined my life (today no heat 1st thing, no hot water, I have to reach inide this fkng cupboard, past this damn unit, stretching every 7.30am during cold periods to reach to turn the huge red plastic switch 'on').. is just skipped over on the glossy manual, which I poured over prior to agreeing the install. A passing mention only. It's a disgrace.

Capt.

 

[notaclue]

Mike. Hi there, I've just stumbled across your thread & without reading it all ( Im so exhausted with mine, I just can't bring myself to tbh) I was amazed to read about your overnight noise thing, in #1. I've been so demoralised thinking I was the only one, with this bedroom noise thing. Was repeatedly told I was the only one too, by Vaillant, grinding me into near-insanity.

So, do we have the same overnight noise issue?? Mine's a Vaillant split heatpump. Govt grant (complicating matters here, as installers not paid by me).

I bypassed installers A) because they blanked my calls & emails to zero, & B) because as it's clearly a hardware issue, so cannot be the fault of the installers (my logic, & remains so however many builders tell me it's solely the installers' responsibility on my build forum). I've had an 18 month long & expensive (long calls) fight with Vaillant. No resolution.

It's ruined my spare bedroom, & the adjacent bedroom too ( a plasterboard wall between meaning the noise heard prominently thru), & even heard in my 3rd bedroom too: interrupting my sleep, making me angry & stressed. So I have to turn the whole system off at 11pm (at the very time I need a heating system to be on ready for the mornings), meaning it's left to freeze solid/ ruining the hardware, & I have no heat or hot water AM... but I have no choice but turn it off last thing, if I want to sleep.

I am SO livid & stressed. ALL due to the wretched positioning of a "hydraulic unit" (the most hateful words in my life) in the spare bedroom cupboard, which I wasn't informed would make any noise whasoever.. let alone a prominent, highly-irritating mechanical noise, incessantly 10pm to 7 am (only during cold periods).

Does this ring true with you too??

Capt

You may well have already considered something similar, but how about some serious soundproofing for the cupboard containing the unit? https://www.noisestopsystems.co.uk/how-to-soundproof-walls/

 

[Mike Reed]

22mm is quite a bit more obvious than 15mm if on display. Quite a difference when you see them side by side.

Agreed (I have bits of both). I an a little concerned about adding 15mm to an upstairs run of 22mm (I think it is anyway) in order to run down the wall and up again. Surely, wouldn't this affect flow/pump pressure? Obv., notaclue, I'd be happier with 15mm (cheaper, too) but when my friend recommended 22mm from a physics perspective, this brought yet another choice into the equation.

I've come to the conclusion that my plumber is good/efficient on fit 'n' finish but maybe doesn't have the maturity or maybe experience to consider other aspects and certainly consequences/vulnerabilities in older people. I think he'll quote for 15mm by default as I haven't mentioned choices in order to to keep it simple but if 22mm is better for this purpose I'm happy to have it regardless of aesthetics.

 

[twotone]

Dammit. I was thinking Mike had the same issue I have- would've helped my case hugely if so.

A heat pump is installed both inside & outside a property, outside being the fan / compressor unit.. & inside the cylinder, rads, &, one other hardware box (called a hydraulic unit) which you are conveniently not told about really pretty much exists @ install. THIS unit.. is the excruciating problem unit. And unknowingly of either it's function or it's fact of emmitting noise at the very time you want to sleep.. it was just put in my spare bed cupboard.

It shouldn't be in the house, whatsoever. Never. If it makes this noise. If it has to be (vaillants pathetic argument to me, also that "you're the only one with the issue" which I simply cannot possibly be, but have found no-one else in the same boat) put inside the house, as they tell me it does, it should NEVER be put in a bedroom.. but sited as far away from bedrooms, as possible. Full stop. No argument.

It's only ever the outside unit that is reported to make any noise, which A) isn't intrusively loud at all to be of a nuisance even if I had a semi-detatched (I don't) with neighbours metres away.. & B ) is outside, so even if it did make more noise than it does, wouldn't likely affect bedrooms/ sleeping, being on a floor above & inside.

This vile "hydraulic unit" that's ruined my life (today no heat 1st thing, no hot water, I have to reach inide this fkng cupboard, past this damn unit, stretching every 7.30am during cold periods to reach to turn the huge red plastic switch 'on').. is just skipped over on the glossy manual, which I poured over prior to agreeing the install. A passing mention only. It's a disgrace.

Capt.

God sounds terrible, I've no experience with these types of systems, can you provide photos and the make model number of the hydraulic unit?

I'm on a private gas installers forum which has a load of manu engineers as members, there's a Valliant trainer on there to so I'll ask on there about this.

Tony

 

[dweezil]

As an uneducated guess having not seen the place 15mm should be fine for the last 8' drops, 18" rises!

 

[The Captain]

Should give a lift to Handel's Water Music then ! My speaker cables are also under the concrete (but in plastic ducting). No audio visitors until I get (a) my ESL repaired, and (b) my c/h sorted. However, frequent local bake-offs around but it will be my turn again this summer.

Mike, sorry to add my own issues on your thread. As it seems there are some with knowledge on these wretched ASHP's I might be brave & do a thread of my ow, now (unfortunately for me) you don't agree we have the same issue.

But you -do- refer directly to the very cause of my noise, during your call to Vaillant. That being the 'frost protection', which it seems you -also- think is an absurd design. So there is something of a parity with our experiences. But ascertaining how much consensus we have between us... I'm just too exhausted with it all to try & establish/ I'm so sick of trying to explain my issue, & as an eg: it took me 8 months of exhaustive, brainache detective work, on my own ((Vaillant sent 10, yes 10 visits even the snr UK engineer here once promising this noise would be fixed that day.. only each to leave perplexed at what it was, unable to fix)) to come to the conclusion MYSELF that it -had- to be the frost protection circuit, responsible. I then called them up, with my findings. They said "yes it's the frost protect circuit, it does it". FFS. Argh......!!!!!

I'll drop out now. I can't cope with it today. But I desperately need help & advice, & as I'm totally on my own ( only 85 yr old parents for 'support' as it's been so mentally draining (health wise, no doubt about it).. I feel helpless, depressed even I'd admit by this situation. My first house too I waited 25 yrs to finally scrape & -just- get on the property ladder, fairly remote, knowing no-one here. Thank goodness for forums.

Thanks, over & out. Capt

 

[twotone]

Agreed (I have bits of both). I an a little concerned about adding 15mm to an upstairs run of 22mm (I think it is anyway) in order to run down the wall and up again. Surely, wouldn't this affect flow/pump pressure? Obv., notaclue, I'd be happier with 15mm (cheaper, too) but when my friend recommended 22mm from a physics perspective, this brought yet another choice into the equation.

I've come to the conclusion that my plumber is good/efficient on fit 'n' finish but maybe doesn't have the maturity or maybe experience to consider other aspects and certainly consequences/vulnerabilities in older people. I think he'll quote for 15mm by default as I haven't mentioned choices in order to to keep it simple but if 22mm is better for this purpose I'm happy to have it regardless of aesthetics.

Mike I can't really remember the exact formula but I think that the most rad output that you can run 15mm pipe-work is about 6kw.

I know that I installed a huge massive rad for a customer and ran the pipe-work in 15mm and the rad struggled to heat, think it was about 5kw output but I've installed replacement boilers in entire heating systems installed in 15mm with no issues (mainly flats) personally I'd always go 22mm>15mm and some systems need 28mm>22mm>15mm and the likes of systems with low loss headers need about 35mm or 42mm off the boiler.

 

[twotone]

@captain is this the unit?

https://www.theheatpumpwarehouse.co.uk/shop/heat-pumps/heat-pump-cylinder-kits/vaillant-heat-exchanger-module/?utm_source=Google Shopping&utm_campaign=Google Shopping Feed&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=3842&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6fafBhC1ARIsAIJjL8lu1pQZwfeX1zvakenKrYHp0pQ9luK__MV8xGFa4bXw-bcovLOjsJcaAtMBEALw_wcB

https://www.vaillant.co.uk/download...lic-module-operating-instructions-1799369.pdf

 

[The Captain]

@twotone Thanks so much for your replies, & for reading my 2 long posts.

(Yes the 2nd one [with the small display], looks identical. My whole system is an Arotherm split; your vaillant chap will likely know my very dispute, so many of their engineers & so much time spent on battling it out with them).

Anyway I'll not hijack Mike's thread further, now we're not in the same boat as I thought (hoped tbh).

I'll do a new thread of my own. And try condensing my posts down/ less spiel too.

Gratefully, Capt

 

[Mike Reed]

Anyway I'll not hijack Mike's thread further, now we're not in the same boat as I thought (hoped tbh).

No prob's., Captain, and I empathise with your frustration and vulnerability, though I'm in your parents' age range; still learning from pfm though! Another string to your bow, Tony. The right appliance in two links; impressive !

As an uneducated guess having not seen the place 15mm should be fine for the last 8' drops, 18" rises!

Uneducated? Right on about the 8' drops (7'10 1/2 to be exact ) but no idea about the 18" rises; what are they. Surely, 8' down and 8' up (+ horizontal connecting pipe). This in 2 places, though.

 

[dweezil]

No prob's., Captain, and I empathise with your frustration and vulnerability, though I'm in your parents' age range; still learning from pfm though! Another string to your bow, Tony. The right appliance in two links; impressive !



Uneducated? Right on about the 8' drops (7'10 1/2 to be exact ) but no idea about the 18" rises; what are they. Surely, 8' down and 8' up (+ horizontal connecting pipe). This in 2 places, though.

Downstairs and upstairs if applicable!

 

[twotone]

@twotone Thanks so much for your replies, & for reading my 2 long posts.

(Yes the 2nd one [with the small display], looks identical. My whole system is an Arotherm split; your vaillant chap will likely know my very dispute, so many of their engineers & so much time spent on battling it out with them).

Anyway I'll not hijack Mike's thread further, now we're not in the same boat as I thought (hoped tbh).

I'll do a new thread of my own. And try condensing my posts down/ less spiel too.

Gratefully, Capt

Hi @captain, I've started a thread on the gas forum, the Vaillant tech guy replied as below and another guy who does ASHP installs replied too.

VTG

"Interesting one. Without hearing the noise I'd have no clue. But there's only one moving part in the hydraulic station and its a diverter valve.

It's literally a box with diverter, expansion vessel, and in-line immersion heater.

Its also optional, the installer will have specified it, but its not a requirement."

Other ASHP installer

"The pump in an ASHP system will be running for far longer periods than a standard system, pretty much all the time in cold weather.

Is the guy saying he turns the indoor unit off due to noise then only turns on when cold ? User error or customer sensitive hearing issues?"

 

[twotone]

Also @captain I see that there's a noise reduction mode on the unit have you enabled that?

Page 3 in the manual I posted earlier

Noise reduction –
mode
Operation with reduced sound emissions

 

[twotone]

Hi @captain sorry to keep bugging you and I’ll stop if you want but I’ve had further replies from the VTG on the other forum and he’s suggesting that the unit you have isn’t probably the one I posted the manual for so it would be helpful if you could provide the exact model number of the indoor unit.

The guy is suggesting that it’s an installation issue if the indoor unit is another part of the outdoor unit rather than ‘just’ a hydraulic unit anyway here’s his replies.

“Shouldn't sound any different to the heating running.

Frost protection is simply the circulating pump running, heat pump should have a nice always open circuit on the heating so wouldn't be any different to normal running.

Frost protection also only kicks in a 4⁰C at the outdoor units sensors, although you would expect the heating to be on a reasonably high setback temp so as to stop the place cooling down too much.

Unless they've possibly zoned the system without a buffer, and their getting thousands of litres per hour trying to get round a bypass, that wouldn't be quiet I wouldn't expect.

Although I'd not expect 10 visits to figure that one out.”

And

“The other possibility is that it's not one of those hydraulic modules, but rather a split heat pump who's indoor unit looks a lot like the meh97, however it had the other half of the refrigeration circuit in it.

The can be more audible with the vibration of the gas passing to them from the compressor. Not uncommon to see the refrigerant pipework with odd loops or U-bends at the outside unit to reduce this.”