Disastrous and disruptive central heating installation; where to now?

[Mike Reed]

Following on from 'C Tec Miracle Seal' thread, and to recap on new Vaillant heat only (indirect) boiler and other things last November. Pump coming on at random small hours, waking us up. Moved to other bedroom. Letter from Anglian Water 10th Jan. to say we had a leak between 1 and 5 litres per hour, 24/7.

Boiler packed up (error code) at the beginning of the recent cold snap 17th Jan. No htg except a few electric fires until Monday late aft. of the 23rd when plumber came with Fernox sealant. He also reduced the pump speed and water temp. from 75 to 65 degrees at my request. Ran htg 24/7 for 4 days, 17 degrees day and 16 at night (first time we've ever done this) for 4 days to distribute the stuff.

Then tried htg off for 2 hours increasing daily to 6 hours, monitoring flow rate with leakage (or ingress of mains water into feeder tank), finally making 12 trips to loft every 1/2 hour on Tuesday the 31st with the ball-valve tied up, monitoring and logging each reading/observation. Return to o/night htg and a few hours off in the day, with daily checks.

The Fernox stuff has certainly reduced the leak, we feel, though the lower water temp. may have a bearing. Also, from finding a flow rate of 12 degrees (boiler frost protection level) in the mornings after notification of the leak causing continuous flow into the tank, we now have a drip (one each second or two) starting at around 22/23 degrees flow rate turning into a continuous drip (not 'flow' as before) at around 18 degrees.

Emailed plumber on progress a week ago after chatting to Fernox, but have yet to update him this weekend. Think he might try another dose of sealant which is about the only remedial action I can think of right now.

What'll happen when we need, or can use, this amount of htg, is constantly on my mind.

 

[stevec67]

The installer needs to come back in and establish that his work is good, to his satisfaction and yours. After that, if there are faults elsewhere then these need to be addressed separately. First A, then B. A might involve you getting someone else in to assess the original work.

 

[mikemusic]

Have a Google
There may be an answer
Best of luck
We've had some odd problems which have resulted in no heat for days
Hopefully ok now

 

[Mike Reed]

The installer needs to come back in and establish that his work is good,

Steve,

I've been thinking hard and long about causal effects etc. His (their) installation was and is first class and works as it should. I believe, however, that the leak was caused by (a) setting a much higher water temp. (75) than the previous rate on our old boiler (unspecified, but never higher than 3.5 out of 5 on the dial); also it was a lower rated boiler (10-16 kWh as opposed to 18 kWh), if this is pertinent.

(b) That he put in Magnaclean cleaner and left is in whilst leaving his Magnaclean prof. filter on our worktop for 3+ days. The water was not drained at that juncture, but I believe it should've been. Trouble is, I'm not sure if he put the cleaner in with my old boiler for a short while before draining. With hindsight, I wish I'd been watching/logging the installation procedure over two days.

(c) isn't a cause, but effect. When he disconnected his Magnaclean filter and connected the system up to my Magnaclean as supplied, there was quite a lot of debris; metal, that is, clinging to the internals. My feeling is that had the system been flushed out/drained down after the cleaner went in, why would so much debris be evident?

The current situation is that we are losing water at a much lower yet upsetting rate providing we lift the flow rate above, say 25 or so. Incidentally, I've been running around frequently adjusting TRVs (mainly upstairs) as a proper balance has yet to be established (with so much going on).

 

[stevec67]

Steve,

I've been thinking hard and long about causal effects etc. His (their) installation was and is first class and works as it should. I believe, however, that the leak was caused by (a) setting a much higher water temp. (75) than the previous rate on our old boiler (unspecified, but never higher than 3.5 out of 5 on the dial); also it was a lower rated boiler (10-16 kWh as opposed to 18 kWh), if this is pertinent.

(b) That he put in Magnaclean cleaner and left is in whilst leaving his Magnaclean prof. filter on our worktop for 3+ days. The water was not drained at that juncture, but I believe it should've been. Trouble is, I'm not sure if he put the cleaner in with my old boiler for a short while before draining. With hindsight, I wish I'd been watching/logging the installation procedure over two days.

(c) isn't a cause, but effect. When he disconnected his Magnaclean filter and connected the system up to my Magnaclean as supplied, there was quite a lot of debris; metal, that is, clinging to the internals. My feeling is that had the system been flushed out/drained down after the cleaner went in, why would so much debris be evident?

The current situation is that we are losing water at a much lower yet upsetting rate providing we lift the flow rate above, say 25 or so. Incidentally, I've been running around frequently adjusting TRVs (mainly upstairs) as a proper balance has yet to be established (with so much going on).

The installer needs to answer this. You have a heating system that doesn't work as intended, we are back to the 2 question s above.

 

[Mike Reed]

The installer needs to answer this. You have a heating system that doesn't work as intended, we are back to the 2 question s above.

I agree, but where the solution is to leak-find, dig up concrete and all that encompasses in a fully carpeted/furnished house OR re-pipe downstairs rads from upstairs (as the plumber has mentioned) which is in itself disruptive. Also not sure how this can be done for 2 rads in a single storey extension !!!!!

It may be that more sealant may work but I feel this'll only be a palliative, esp. when the water temp. is increased to 70 (65 is a bit low, we think).

 

[mikemusic]

Our original installation was 2009
Pipes mostly in the floor

Pressure kept dropping, top up once a day or two around 2020
Our guy found the loss was in one section and disconnected that to prove
Some fiddling and we were left with 3 rads disconnected in a big room and no leak at last

Ripping up the large kitchen diner floor to find the leak doesn't appeal but after that really cold spell I will have one or two rads connected with a brand new pipe run

 

[twotone]

Steve,

I've been thinking hard and long about causal effects etc. His (their) installation was and is first class and works as it should. I believe, however, that the leak was caused by (a) setting a much higher water temp. (75) than the previous rate on our old boiler (unspecified, but never higher than 3.5 out of 5 on the dial); also it was a lower rated boiler (10-16 kWh as opposed to 18 kWh), if this is pertinent.

(b) That he put in Magnaclean cleaner and left is in whilst leaving his Magnaclean prof. filter on our worktop for 3+ days. The water was not drained at that juncture, but I believe it should've been. Trouble is, I'm not sure if he put the cleaner in with my old boiler for a short while before draining. With hindsight, I wish I'd been watching/logging the installation procedure over two days.

(c) isn't a cause, but effect. When he disconnected his Magnaclean filter and connected the system up to my Magnaclean as supplied, there was quite a lot of debris; metal, that is, clinging to the internals. My feeling is that had the system been flushed out/drained down after the cleaner went in, why would so much debris be evident?

The current situation is that we are losing water at a much lower yet upsetting rate providing we lift the flow rate above, say 25 or so. Incidentally, I've been running around frequently adjusting TRVs (mainly upstairs) as a proper balance has yet to be established (with so much going on).

Mike you really need to get someone else in to have a look and possibly quote to sort this out you have a boiler that you can’t use properly because you have a leak now I’ve consistently said on these three threads that I don’t think the plumber is to blame for the leaks but the facts are you paid £4200 for a new boiler that you can’t use so the leaks have to be found and fixed or the heating system to the downstairs has to be replaced with surface pipe-work which will sort the leaks and be the least disruptive method of fixing this problem however if you do go down that road then you’ll never know what caused the leaks but frankly that is irrelevant now but it’s my opinion that the cost to do this work is on yourself so either you ask the plumber to do it or another plumber the leak sealer is but a sticking plaster and worse than useless.

Personally if you were my customer I’d offer to sort the problem for a nominal labour charge plus materials at costs but in my experience once a customer loses faith in you then there’s no way back so if you are at that stage then move on with someone else.

Have to say though that this situation is as bad for the plumber as it is for you and if I was in his position and you decide to go elsewhere then I think I’d be refunding you my labour cost at the very least cause if you go down the legal road he’ll need to refund you the entire cost of the work he’s charged you for.

Best of luck Mike.

Tony

 

[notaclue]

Seems safe to say the leak sealer hasn't worked properly.

Assuming it is affordable for you, sounds like it is now time to bring in a company that specialises in leak detection. See if they can find the leak and, if they can, if it's not too disruptive to fix.

Until you know those two things, you won't know what your best option is.

 

[twotone]

Seems safe to say the leak sealer hasn't worked properly.

Assuming it is affordable for you, sounds like it is now time to bring in a company that specialises in leak detection. See if they can find the leak and, if they can, if it's not too disruptive to fix.

Until you know those two things, you won't know what your best option is.

No point in paying for leak detection he knows he has a leak but you can isolate the downstairs rad circuit to confirm and that should be easy enough.

 

[notaclue]

No point in paying for leak detection he knows he has a leak but you can isolate the downstairs rad circuit to confirm and that should be easy enough.

But I would still try to see if the experts can find and fix under the concrete. It might only be a small, out of the way area that needs digging up. If that fails, then at least you'll know a surface re-pipe is the only option that doesn't involve a lot of digging.

 

[Mike Reed]

Have to say though that this situation is as bad for the plumber as it is for you and if I was in his position and you decide to go elsewhere then I think I’d be refunding you my labour cost at the very least cause if you go down the legal road he’ll need to refund you the entire cost of the work he’s charged you for.

Many thanks for those crumbs of comfort ????!!) Tony. Your para, above has been in my thoughts but as a last resort as I hate any form of contention, esp. legal. Htg fine all the years before; not after. Actual work is exc. but don't think he followed due caution with the cleaner and temp + pump settings as he was fully aware of my situation as well as my cautious attitude to this installation here.

Assuming it is affordable for you, sounds like it is now time to bring in a company that specialises in leak detection. See if they can find the leak and, if they can, if it's not too disruptive to fix.

.

Yes, that has occurred to me and would hope that the plumber can find a local one and/or organise it. However, as I think this would involve some disruption, it'd be better when things warm up a bit. I'm guessing here, though.

No point in paying for leak detection he knows he has a leak but you can isolate the downstairs rad circuit to confirm and that should be easy enough.

No doubt about the leak being in the downstairs part (under concrete). Location of the leak would be useful, though.

 

[Ellenor]

Are the installer’s hands tied because you don’t want any disruption to the house? I’d look for the leak and make a repair. I can’t think why it hasn’t shown itself yet with the amount you’ve been losing. Are the walls still dry? I had one once with a similar rate of loss as you and the paint was bubbling up on the walls and skirtings and the windows were covered in condensation.
Get a thermal imaging camera to trace the pipe runs and start pulling up carpets to find it. Sorry but it is what it is, you’ll have to start moving stuff.

 

[palacefan]

Mike worth asking Carters Heating Services if they can advise or help, Steve Carter is very helpful and considerate ( very busy). 01603 746168

 

[twotone]

Are the installer’s hands tied because you don’t want any disruption to the house? I’d look for the leak and make a repair. I can’t think why it hasn’t shown itself yet with the amount you’ve been losing. Are the walls still dry? I had one once with a similar rate of loss as you and the paint was bubbling up on the walls and skirtings and the windows were covered in condensation.
Get a thermal imaging camera to trace the pipe runs and start pulling up carpets to find it. Sorry but it is what it is, you’ll have to start moving stuff.

What do you think @Ellenor re the plumber causing the leak?

Personally I don't think so but I've not worked on heating systems where pipe-work is buried under concrete floors so interested in your view here.

I had a customer (think I mentioned this one before) who had a leak on a heat exchanger (boiler was in the loft) but the boiler manufacturer insisted that the customer have someone find the 'leak' on the pipe-work in the sub basement which was more or less inaccessible.

So I offered to isolate the downstairs/ground floor rad pipe-work but he decided to go with a 'leak specialist' who filled the heating system with some sort of inert gas for three hours and couldn't find a leak on the heating system pipe-work, no idea what this guy charged but as I said he was only there three hours so he must have been expensive, but anyway his 'survey' was inconclusive and it turned out the HEX was leaking and the boiler was eventually sorted under warranty but this lot took about three months.

 

[twotone]

Many thanks for those crumbs of comfort ????!!) Tony. Your para, above has been in my thoughts but as a last resort as I hate any form of contention, esp. legal. Htg fine all the years before; not after. Actual work is exc. but don't think he followed due caution with the cleaner and temp + pump settings as he was fully aware of my situation as well as my cautious attitude to this installation here.

.

Yes, that has occurred to me and would hope that the plumber can find a local one and/or organise it. However, as I think this would involve some disruption, it'd be better when things warm up a bit. I'm guessing here, though.



No doubt about the leak being in the downstairs part (under concrete). Location of the leak would be useful, though.

Mike I wish all of my customer's were like you, you have shown remarkable restraint here, the plumber is lucky guy to have you as a customer.

 

[Ellenor]

What do you think @Ellenor re the plumber causing the leak?

Personally I don't think so but I've not worked on heating systems where pipe-work is buried under concrete floors so interested in your view here.

I had a customer (think I mentioned this one before) who had a leak on a heat exchanger (boiler was in the loft) but the boiler manufacturer insisted that the customer have someone find the 'leak' on the pipe-work in the sub basement which was more or less inaccessible.

So I offered to isolate the downstairs/ground floor rad pipe-work but he decided to go with a 'leak specialist' who filled the heating system with some sort of inert gas for three hours and couldn't find a leak on the heating system pipe-work, no idea what this guy charged but as I said he was only there three hours so he must have been expensive, but anyway his 'survey' was inconclusive and it turned out the HEX was leaking and the boiler was eventually sorted under warranty but this lot took about three months.

No I don’t think it’s the installer’s fault at all. Sometimes these things happen and can’t be helped. It’s not as if he asked for it by pressurising the system. The way he’s handled it (or not as seems the case) is totally out of order.
It’s time for Mike to give up on him and find someone else through recommendation. He will need to cooperate with whoever he uses to get it sorted even if that involves emptying a sideboard etc to move it
None of this is rocket science but it’s not something to rush into.

 

[Ian G]

Mike's predicament is extremely unfortunate and a massive pain in the butt for them both, however, it may not be the plumbers fault. Flushing the system before boiler installation is par for the course now and potentially voids your warranty of not carried out. I have seen issues occur after this on several installations. Any operation that disturbs the status quo could uncover hidden issues. I am surprised that no leakage is visible after this amount of time, but guess it depends upon the method used to run the pipe work under the screed.

I hope you manage to get it sorted Mike.

 

[Mike Reed]

I can’t think why it hasn’t shown itself yet with the amount you’ve been losing. Are the walls still dry? I had one once with a similar rate of loss as you and the paint was bubbling up on the walls....

Not at that stage yet, so no impediment to progress. I know roughly where the pipe runs are, but there's thick u/lay + carpet over. Kitchen/diner has quality plastic tiling over mastic. There have been NO signs of damp coming through anywhere. Yes, I can only lift parts of the carpeted area, like the hall, and even that's struggle at my age/physical shape. Other runs are slap dang in the middle of the living area, which would create chaos and prob. involve removing all my hifi and disassembling my 3 tier wooden shelf unit. Dismantling my record player is a no-no (N.A. Dais at 30 odd kg !)

Of course, the leakage is so much smaller currently, so may well not show up even if I could lift all carpets.

Mike worth asking Carters Heating Services if they can advise or help, Steve Carter is very helpful and considerate ( very busy). 01603 746168

Much appreciated, Tony. Could be useful if he's a damp detective !

No I don’t think it’s the installer’s fault at all.

I do feel that he has some culpability, Ellenor, as he knew the situation well re my (purely precautionary) pipe concerns, yet set the boiler and pump at max and (I think) did not drain/flush out the cleaner, which certainly worked ! To reiterate, no system installation criticisms at all; just preparation and aftercare (or lack of it considering?).

 

[Mike Reed]

Flushing the system before boiler installation is par for the course now and potentially voids your warranty of not carried out.

Not sure he flushed the system, as I've mentioned. I guess the cleaner was put in when filling the system and running it through his Magnaclean for a few days, with evident metallic results. I was chatting to him during that collection period and he didn't run the water through into my sink or anywhere. I only saw the draining hose to the street gutter at the outset before removal of my old boiler. I keep thinking this may be an important facet, as the cleaner instr. say 1 hour, but can be left in for up to 28 days before flushing away.