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Dedicated Mains / Memera / Roy K Riches

Here are some Pron pictures of my RKR install...

The spagetti junction behind the Fraim...
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The local earh spike which helped massively...
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One of the 63amp flexible cable to each piece of kit from the 48amp MCBO's...
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The offer still stands for the disbelievers ;) only a pm away... or any other interested pfmers locally can have a listen too...

to be honest I can't be bothered to post too much more on here... I'm going to go listen :D
 
I'm not in the least bit muddled.

The claimed improvements are either measurable, or they are not. If they are measurable, show the data, if they are not, the claims are "outlandish" IMO. I personally don't believe the claims, firstly because RKR'd systems I have heard sound "nothing special" [5 out of 10 on my scale, haha], and secondly because there is no theoretical reason why this mains rigmarole should improve a hi-fi.

So which?

1.just because we are unable to measure an effect does not preclude its existence./..I`m getting sick of repeating this!

2.There is a pefectly good theoretical reason...power supply intermodulation distortion resulting from voltage drop across impedances such as contacts
To explain: if your water supply has a high impedance, then turning on the kitchen tap will modulate the flow of waterto other parts of the system, eg the shower. This is quite a well known effect and can easily be solved by giving each appliance it`s own dedicated feed

laurie
 
I'm pretty sure that I read some research into mains earth problems and ground earth spikes in particular which showed that the impedance of such things is way higher than a typical mains earth point, watered spike or not.
Potentially a very bad thing if you suffer an equipment fault........

I'll post the link if I can remember it.
 
Found it - on Martin Clark's excellent 'acoustica' site.
Can't link direct as the site uses frames but here is the text. Sorry it is rather long but serves as a wake up call to those inclined to dabble.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

One apparent alternative in order to provide a local earth would be to connect the new earth to the outlets supplying the system, and disconnecting the service earth. This is idea is worth exploring further only to highlight the risks it brings. The fundamental problem with DIY earth rods is simple: it's difficult to get even close to the service earth impedance (usually c. 0.2 - 0.5 Ohms)- and the stake's impedance will vary with soil type, season, rainfall etc. One poster on the Naim Forum connected a digital multimeter between his house earth and a new earth stake in the garden:

AC was more of a surprise (the numbers weren't this high
when I first installed). PD is about 1.5V, and current about 150mA.
I presume this must be 50Hz, but there's no way for me to measure it.
This earth spike equates to ~10ohm impedance: rather good, actually, for a single spike. If it were 'perfect', close to 0 ohms, the measured current would be correspondingly huge; V=IR and all that. Now imagine this earth stake is collecting fault current from some sudden fault in your audio system; with your earth stake at, say, 25ohms - more typical for a 4 foot rod - the current that will flow will be ~10A at UK mains voltage. This may NOT be enough to blow the faulty equipment's fuse, the basic intention of safety earthing. Consider the implications well. This is why TT systems must use of RCDs set to trip at 30mA leakage and not fuses in the consumer unit.
Finally, if you do disconnect the provided earth on a PME supply and substitute your own there is a real risk of electrocution during a fault in the rest of your house or, theoretically, those of your neighbours too. No wire or patch of earth has zero impedance, so fault current flowing to earth elsewhere will raise all bonded metalwork (think radiators and pipework) to a significant potential above your own earth spike. If, for some bizarre reason, you happened to be touching, say, the radiator while you fiddle with your hifi during such a fault there's a finite risk of electrocution. If you mistakenly happen to ground part of your kit to the radiator, whilst still relying on your own independent earth under such conditions, well you better budget for replacing at least the speakers... For information, 2 meters is considered sufficient separation between bonded items for certain classes of separately-derived earth bondings under IEE regulations - presumably because it would require a determined effort to bridge the gap!

In passing, and here because it belongs nowhere else really, a caveat that applies to all PME system users: do not connect earth and neutral together directly at any point, eg using a 'modified' plug, thinking that if they are bonded once, more must be better. The reason is fairly subtle: the earth wire exists as a separate wire inside your house for fault currents only - an escape path. If it was connected to the neutral it woud effectively become exposed to normal load current. If your neutral develops a fault, everything would continue to operate as normal except that all the items normally bonded to earth would float up to some indeterminate potential, possibly dangerously high, because the earth is now a service conductor. Think about that for a bit...

Note again that all this scary stuff refers only to PME systems. Where PME is not the norm locally, the rules are different again. If you have an electrical supply which is earthed to a distribution company spike near the point it enters your house ('TT' - the norm in many non-suburban locations) there is no problem, and multiple earth spikes - bonded as required by your local electrical codes of practice - will indeed improve matters by lowering the earth's apparent impedance. Multiple earth spikes should be spaced at least 2x length apart for lowest impedance.

So if it is all so problematic, why bother?

OK scary stuff over, this one is simple: we've heard the difference a new stake can make and it can be remarkably unsubtle. I (martin) have a strong suspicion I can't as yet test that the reason(s) is/are less to do with 'low resistance' and more to do with 'low impedance'. I'm not talking RF here - just a few feet of connecting wire has too much inductance for that - but I suspect that at audio frequencies, particularly in the midrange, a local earth stake can provide a lower inductance route for noise currents than can the mains wiring; and that this is the crucial difference. Yes there are noise voltages at these frequencies created by audio gear - the greatest source is rectification (diodes) in power supplies, particularly in high power amplifiers, which generate all kinds of harmonics. Compare that with the conventional view of what the earth connection does:

I still don't see why these figures should affect sound quality -
the current flow comes into the house through the supply,
travels between two adjacent connections on the earth
connection bar, and straight out to the earth rod.

Well yes, if the current were constant, and at one dominant frequency; but broadly it is neither. The earth conductor, although intended only for safety use, also sees the leakage current from many, many items of consumer electronics with EMC-compliance filters; your house's wiring, including the earth, may even act as an aerial if you live close to powerful radio users - CB sets, radio stations etc. Since there is obviously some impedance involved, anytime the current or relative magnitudes of harmonics change, the apparent voltage and spectral content of this noise current will as well - and that could provide some odd effects for a system would 'see' a changing reference. Remember these currents will appear as 'common-mode' noise to the system and so stray capacitances, such as exists between the primary and secondary of all transformers, can be a source of coupling into the audio circuitry; there are certainly some subtle effects at work. Some of these ponderings come back to the mains noise investigation/musings and the measurements I've been playing with since. Whilst the jury is still out, I've been learning some rather interesting things (to me anyway!) as to how equipment interacts with the mains. Drawing current at 50Hz is just a part of it in terms of sonic impact; Andy Weekes commented:
I strongly suspect that it's the RF side of things where the
improvement comes - it's a complex thing to model, and I
suspect in particular installations that certain earth cable
lengths may sound better than others, dependant upon
local RF levels and frequencies.

It's such a big improvement though, and surprisingly it's rhythmically
better rather than just quieter in a HiFi sense - weird.

I suspect that the ease with which low-noise, non-degenerated
bipolar transistor amp stages can be pushed into non-linearity by
tiny amounts (relatively) of HF noise, has something to do with it
too, if my recent PSU work is anything to go by. Just small
amounts of unwanted noise can cause severe ill-effects.

We'll leave it there for now...just two things:
Play with your electricity supply and you are on your own. Do we need to say this ?
From 01 Jan 05 in the UK Electrical works such as this need to be signed-off by a suitably-qualified person or approved by your local Building control inspectorate, following the introduction of the new Approved Document Part P component of the Building Regulations.


Further reading:

- UK Building Regulations, Approved Documents Part P
- Leaflet EMC 07: Protective multiple earthing on the RSGB Website.
- Regulations for Electrical Installations (Edition 16) & lEE On-site Guide, available at good bookshops, your local library or via interlibrary loan.
- BS7430:1998 (Code of Practice for Earthing) but at £116 for 86 pages it's probably worth asking the library first..
 
1.just because we are unable to measure an effect does not preclude its existence./..I`m getting sick of repeating this!
This may be sort of true, but it's not applicable here.

2.There is a pefectly good theoretical reason...power supply intermodulation distortion resulting from voltage drop across impedances such as contacts
If this is good theory then it's measurable. In practice I think the (easily measurable) impedance of the incoming mains dominates non-faulty installations. So perhaps more theory required?

Paul
 
This playground banter is all rather amusing, but as I pointed out (way back!) on page 4 all the RKR aficionados have to do is this:

When installing the RKR set-up, keep one double (or single) wall socket near the hi-fi system 'ordinary' -- by this I mean that it's just connected to the normal household mains supply.

Then buy the cheapest approved mains block you can find and plug it into the wall socket, retain the original mains leads that came with the equipment, and plug these into the mains block. After listening to your system powered RKR-style, if leaving the house, going to bed, or whatever, simply power down the system, unplug Roy's 'beasts' from the equipment's IEC sockets, and replace them with the original equipment leads connected to the household mains supply. Switch back on. This should take all of (approx) 60 seconds. When listening again, simply reverse the process.

I'm sure someone like Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other. Problem solved! I’m sure that won’t stop the endless tit-for-tat arguing, though…

Mike
 
Lol. I feel privileged, Laurie. Honestly, though, I remember seeing these exact same arguments about 5 years ago on the Naim forum and they're still going on! And no progress has been made whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that Paul Ranson and you were 'best friends' around that time, too!!

Mike
 
am I the only one thinking....


''loose bricks in my wall''


''bloody awful cable mess''

'' messy cables all over the garden''


?
 
I was exceptionally sceptical about dedicated mains improving hi-fi performance until I had it done. I had two set ups with a single ring main and then went for 4 separate spurs. What can I say - it made a tremendous difference - greater detail and control.

The 4 separate spurs were the most noticable by far.
 
I'm pretty sure that Paul Ranson and you were 'best friends' around that time, too!!

Mike

As it happens, I believe that Paul and I both agree on a large number of issues
and I can tell that his line of reasoning is generally intelligent, unmuddled and incisive. I certainly bear no malice.Quite the reverse. I think that we both enjoy a good "joust"

I am always depressed that disagreements...which in fact form the basis of real progress...often descend into slanging matches, usually involving personal abuse. I guess that some folk get too emotionally attached to a particular viewpoint and feel that they have to defend it "to the death "

.....or else I am just too damn undiplomatic in my postings!

laurie
 
I'm sure someone like Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other. Problem solved! I’m sure that won’t stop the endless tit-for-tat arguing, though…

been there (compared ring main/mains block next to spurs), and got the T shirt.

Makes me laugh really...picture the following words in a Golum type voice:

"multiple spus are really really good, yeeees they are, they are, u know"
"no, they are the work of the devil, You can't measure em, they are not legal, baaaad boooy/giiirll"

etc etc....

Records aren't the only thing that goes round and round on this forum, are they?
 
Laurie, considering it's been going on for 5 years+ it certainly looks that way!

Question for jonnoshore: why did you use such long mains leads when the CU is so close to the hi-fi?

Mike
 
am I the only one thinking....


''loose bricks in my wall''


''bloody awful cable mess''

'' messy cables all over the garden''


?

No you are not the only one. :)

But then I'm a Hi Fi light-weight and assume that because I can hear no pops, clicks or buzzes from other appliances, just consistently good sound - it must be ok. I'm sure I may be missing out but hey, there comes a point where just playing CDs sounds like more fun than ripping out my electrics.

Steve.
 
been there (compared ring main/mains block next to spurs), and got the T shirt.

Makes me laugh really...picture the following words in a Golum type voice:

"multiple spus are really really good, yeeees they are, they are, u know"
"no, they are the work of the devil, You can't measure em, they are not legal, baaaad boooy/giiirll"

etc etc....

Records aren't the only thing that goes round and round on this forum, are they?

Ha-ha, I think quite a few here have got those records AND all the remixes!

Andrew, we can only hope that your eminently sensible approach filters through to the rest of the brethren.

Mike
 


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