Brexit: give me a positive effect... V

[Nick_G]

The was obviously for the “fellow brexit travellers” comment, though I expect nothing less from this russel character, those supporting his nonsense and those who ‘like’ your little telling off there. It’s normal behaviour for remainers on this forum.


Not at all, as explained above.

Where is the one (or possibly many) that offended you earlier causing you to get personal?

It's just the whole discourse in the Brexit threads, but that last one was particularly callous. Russel made a very valid analogy to express how many of us feel about this increasingly crazy sh*tsow, created entirely by the Tories btw. To dismiss many people's deep sadness, horror, and fear of where this is taking the country with a rolleyes emoticon, I find to be quite offensive. You are quick to criticise the Tories in general, but when it comes to Brexit you seem to have a blind spot. There is absolutely no mandate for this insane, no-deal, law-breaking Brexit, and you know it.

 

[Brian]

It's just the whole discourse in the Brexit threads, but that last one was particularly callous. Russel made a very valid analogy to express how many of us feel about this increasingly crazy sh*tsow, created entirely by the Tories btw. To dismiss many people's deep sadness, horror, and fear of where this is taking the country with a rolleyes emoticon, I find to be quite offensive. You are quick to criticise the Tories in general, but when it comes to Brexit you seem to have a blind spot. There is absolutely no mandate for this insane, no-deal, law-breaking Brexit, and you know it.

Ah righto, So I may well have been making entirely acceptable posts yet you decide to have a snipe because of the ‘whole discourse in brexit threads’. That’s juvenile, don’t you agree?

Callous? I told you very clearly why the was posted. What do you expect me to say to the idiotic comment, “your fellow brexit travellers”? Nobody knows how I voted in the referendum despite the obsession here. You can make it up (lie) which means the is entirely appropriate.

Here is your chance to admit you jumped in with an incorrect interpretation of that post, and also apologise for the uncalled earlier personal one.

Over to you.

 

[tonerei]

The boss may not always be right but he is always the boss. The same applies to MPs and if they fail to represent the views of the electorate they could well be replaced by someone who will.

Nah not really just your flawed system delivering a bad mongrel every time.

 

[rbrown]

The was obviously for the “fellow brexit travellers” comment, though I expect nothing less from this russel character, those supporting his nonsense and those who ‘like’ your little telling off there. It’s normal behaviour for remainers on this forum.

Ah that's revealing. You don't categorise yourself as a remainer and dissociate yourself from them.

 

[russel]

Ah righto, So I may well have been making entirely acceptable posts yet you decide to have a snipe because of the ‘whole discourse in brexit threads’. That’s juvenile, don’t you agree?

Callous? I told you very clearly why the was posted. What do you expect me to say to the idiotic comment, “your fellow brexit travellers”? Nobody knows how I voted in the referendum despite the obsession here. You can make it up (lie) which means the is entirely appropriate.

Here is your chance to admit you jumped in with an incorrect interpretation of that post, and also apologise for the uncalled earlier personal one.

Over to you.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The was obviously for the “fellow brexit travellers” comment, though I expect nothing less from this russel character, those supporting his nonsense and those who ‘like’ your little telling off there. It’s normal behaviour for remainers on this forum.

I wouldn’t presume to give a telling-off, though if you perceived it as such, that probably reflects my disappointment well enough. In truth, I find your explanation/justification here a little threadbare, sorry. If you read the posts that precede it, it’s clear that russel’s post was less about the ‘fellow travellers’ and more about the feeling of being trapped. In that context, if you were simply criticising the ‘fellow travellers’ element, it would have been better if you’d made that clear. As it is, by quoting the entire post, it does appear that you are being rather dismissive of a very real, human, and entirely justified concern.

 

[Seeker_UK]

Ah that's revealing. You don't categorise yourself as a remainer and dissociate yourself from them.

Not quite. It's disassociation from "...remainers on this forum" (my emphasis).

 

[eternumviti]

The deadlock is the GFA, how is that EU designed?

And what do you call BoJo's and by extension the UK's action of tearing up of the WA, which The Clown co-drafted and signed (AKA "Fantastic Moment")?

The deadlock isn't the GFA per se, it is a consequence the sequencing, and Varadkar's rejection of dialogue, both of which are a consequence of the EU's determination to either kill brexit stone dead, or turn the UK into a colony of Brussels.

With no parliamentary majority and his back against the wall Johnson had no choice other than to sign the WA. He should have torn the bloody thing to shreds the minute he was returned with an 80 odd seat majority. The Irish Protocol is only one of the many man traps, sovereignty traps and money traps painstakingly built into the thing by Olly and Michel. No honey traps though.

@eternumviti - I think the deadlock has been due the the UK’s inability to reach an agreement on any part of the deal. The kind of sequencing used here is commonplace in big negotiations: without it, both parties would be tempted to revisit earlier sections over and over, which would eventually unravel any hope of a deal. It’s a measure to encourage good-faith negotiating, and the principle was accepted by both sides. On the WA itself, I don’t understand how a parliament that rejected May’s version three times would so enthusiastically accept Johnson’s more supine revision, one which only removed the threat of the backstop by unilaterally implementing it from Day 1. I’m cynical enough to believe that, as often with the Tories, it was never about the deal, and more about being seen to side with the “winners” in the hope of personal advancement, and the stories of Johnson reassuring MPs that he was intending to renege on the deal has too much of a ring of truth to it to discount…

I don't dispute the use of sequencing as a norm in such negotiations, just this sequencing. The EU demanded it, although there is no requirement for it in A50. It was patently designed to trap the UK in an impossible situation whilst the clock ran down, and it should never have been agreed to. There's no other reason for it. It makes absolutely no sense to talk about the border between NI and Ireland until the shape of the FTA towards which the two sides were compelled to work under the text of A50 was known. The Canada type deal which M.Barnier kept insisting was the only one available to the UK given its red lines would have required a relative paucity of checks, and these could easily have been applied away from the border.

You will recall that when the UK side said 'thankyou, a Canada type FTA will do just fine', M.Barnier announced that it was no longer available. This does not constitute 'good faith'.

 

[Brian]

Ah that's revealing. You don't categorise yourself as a remainer and dissociate yourself from them.

Revealing of what exactly? I’ll tell you what is revealed here. It’s that people like you have the type of mentality to categorise people as scum based not only on how they voted in a referendum, but based also on if they won’t say how they voted.

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......

Whatever you say, tough guy.

I wouldn’t presume to give a telling-off, though if you perceived it as such, that probably reflects my disappointment well enough. In truth, I find your explanation/justification here a little threadbare, sorry. If you read the posts that precede it, it’s clear that russel’s post was less about the ‘fellow travellers’ and more about the feeling of being trapped. In that context, if you were simply criticising the ‘fellow travellers’ element, it would have been better if you’d made that clear. As it is, by quoting the entire post, it does appear that you are being rather dismissive of a very real, human, and entirely justified concern.

Except it happens to be true.

My meaning was clear in the exchange and the context was obvious, the obsession with how I voted has been going on for ages and this was yet another instance of it. See his latest duck reference.

 

[tuga]

Another step towards a Federal Europe?

Could we found a new EU without Hungary and Poland?
Dutch PM Mark Rutte broke an unspoken taboo by asking 'Can you found an EU without Hungary and Poland?'

https://euobserver.com/opinion/149470

 

[lagavullin10y]

Another step towards a Federal Europe?

Could we found a new EU without Hungary and Poland?
Dutch PM Mark Rutte broke an unspoken taboo by asking 'Can you found an EU without Hungary and Poland?'

https://euobserver.com/opinion/149470

We - the Dutch - have always been open and said things as they are. This does not mean that we take that direction. We are no supporters at all of a federal europe.

Another country recently ran away, the only option they had after 50 years of polarizing bad politics.

 

[tuga]

We - the Dutch - have always been open and said things as they are. This does not mean that we take that direction. We are no supporters at all of a federal europe.

Another country recently ran away, the only option they had after 50 years of polarizing bad politics.

My intro was tongue-in-cheek...

It would be nice if Hungary and Poland referendoed out of the EU but they're at the receiving end so it is highly unlikely.

 

[tuga]

As mentioned by the author of the piece, many people from those countries are being dragged, just as Remainers in the UK, down a dark alleyway which they didn't vote for against their will. Imposing sanctions might prove less harmful for them.

P.S. it would be like building a wall...

 

[lagavullin10y]

My intro was tongue-in-cheek...

It would be nice if Hungary and Poland referendoed out of the EU but they're at the receiving end so it is highly unlikely.

Personally, I think that Hungary & Poland are very important for the EU. Maybe not this decennium, but the workforce in these countries is really needed, as well as the traditional role of Poland as a buffer against Russia. I think it is the only european country actually spending more on Defence each year.

 

[tuga]

Personally, I think that Hungary & Poland are very important for the EU. Maybe not this decennium, but the workforce in these countries is really needed, as well as the traditional role of Poland as a buffer against Russia. I think it is the only european country actually spending more on Defence each year.

I have mixed feelings about Poland's increased spending in defense, a country which is moving towards a right-wing dictatorship.

 

[king brilliant]

With no parliamentary majority and his back against the wall Johnson had no choice other than to sign the WA. He should have torn the bloody thing to shreds the minute he was returned with an 80 odd seat majority.

The WA agreement was not passed by the UK parliament until 23rd January 2020, well after Johnson obtained his 80-seat majority. It's not true that he had 'no choice other than to sign it'. He had ample opportunity to 'tear the bloody thing up' before that vote - had he wanted to.

 

[Seeker_UK]

I have mixed feelings about Poland's increased spending in defense,

For a country that spent most of the 20th century being run by countries to its East or West, it's hardly surprising they're bolstering up their 'insurance policy'.

 

[Brian]

The WA agreement was not passed by the UK parliament until 23rd January 2020, well after Johnson obtained his 80-seat majority. It's not true that he had 'no choice other than to sign it'. He had ample opportunity to 'tear the bloody thing up' before that vote - had he wanted to.

The WA was agreed in Oct 2019.

Not saying Johnson is anything other than a dangerous berk.

 

[Colin L]

The deadlock isn't the GFA per se, it is a consequence the sequencing, and Varadkar's rejection of dialogue, both of which are a consequence of the EU's determination to either kill brexit stone dead, or turn the UK into a colony of Brussels.

With no parliamentary majority and his back against the wall Johnson had no choice other than to sign the WA. He should have torn the bloody thing to shreds the minute he was returned with an 80 odd seat majority. The Irish Protocol is only one of the many man traps, sovereignty traps and money traps painstakingly built into the thing by Olly and Michel. No honey traps though.



I don't dispute the use of sequencing as a norm in such negotiations, just this sequencing. The EU demanded it, although there is no requirement for it in A50. It was patently designed to trap the UK in an impossible situation whilst the clock ran down, and it should never have been agreed to. There's no other reason for it. It makes absolutely no sense to talk about the border between NI and Ireland until the shape of the FTA towards which the two sides were compelled to work under the text of A50 was known. The Canada type deal which M.Barnier kept insisting was the only one available to the UK given its red lines would have required a relative paucity of checks, and these could easily have been applied away from the border.

You will recall that when the UK side said 'thankyou, a Canada type FTA will do just fine', M.Barnier announced that it was no longer available. This does not constitute 'good faith'.

Show me where/when Barnier offered a Canada-style FTA and then withdrew the offer. My recollection is that Barnier agreed the desirability of a comprehensive FTA, and the UK said righto, we'll have the Canada one, which was never going to the agreed to by the EU

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51549662

 

[king brilliant]

The WA was agreed in Oct 2019.

??? I was challenging ET's incorrect assertion that, because he had no majority (back to the wall etc.), Johnson had no choice but to sign the WA. The text was indeed drafted in Oct 2019. It was eventually passed by the UK parliament in January 2020, with Johnson's full support - and with the aid of the Tories' huge majority. It was actually 'signed' on 24th January 2020.