Brexit: give me a positive effect... V

[tuga]

I was just using similar terms to some earlier posts in reply, no offence is intended by that.

Fair enough.

My view is that it is what it is and as a country we need to make a success of leaving. Dwelling on the aspects you mention really doesn’t go anywhere, Colin.

The next election is going to be probably even more important than the last one, it is make or break time.

Brian, BrExit is a failure and there is no way to make it successful. If that were not enough, we also have to cope with the social and economic impact of Covid.
But it's not just BrExit, Leavers have enabled a government of incompetent corrupt radicals and the trajectory that they've set for the UK is nothing to look forward to, quite the contrary.

 

[wacko]

He's not weeping, he's pissed.

Or trying to Whisper ? (in house )

 

[eternumviti]

Or trying to Whisper ? (in house )

Sshhh!

 

[Brian]

Brian, BrExit is a failure and there is no way to make it successful. If that were not enough, we also have to cope with the social and economic impact of Covid.
But it's not just BrExit, Leavers have enabled a government of incompetent corrupt radicals and the trajectory that they've set for the UK is nothing to look forward to, quite the contrary.

Leavers have enabled a government....along with those others I have already mentioned.

I know it’s tough to admit for those remain supporters who didn’t vote in the last GE in the best way to stop brexit, or for a second referendum due to < enter any old dross here about Labour> but it’s the way it is.

Try this link again

If remain supporters had thought it through the Tories may well have still won but with a much reduced majority. Leave supporters managed to do it and apparently they’re all thick.

Then there is 2017, 2015 and 2010. There has been plenty of opportunity in the last decade to vote for a better govt than this one and for no brexit.

 

[eternumviti]

Brian, BrExit is a failure and there is no way to make it successful. If that were not enough, we also have to cope with the social and economic impact of Covid.
But it's not just BrExit, Leavers have enabled a government of incompetent corrupt radicals and the trajectory that they've set for the UK is nothing to look forward to, quite the contrary.

On current evidence some would argue that by voting Conservative, voters have enabled a particularly authoritarian, statist Labour government.

 

[stephen bennett]

On current evidence some would argue that by voting Conservative, voters have enabled a particularly authoritarian, statist Labour government.

Labour would have used the state and local mechanisms to coordinate the response to testing and tracing.

They would not have funnelled tax payers money into ineffective schemes run by their friends and donors.

They would have paused Brexit.

And they could have hardly been more draconian. The only ‘advantage’ of the Conservatives being in power is that their supine media would have been much harder on any Labour failures and transgressions making lockdown less effective. Perhaps.

Stephen

 

[stephen bennett]

Victim blaming is a common method that people use to try and absolve themselves from the responsibility of their behaviour towards others.

That Brexit isn’t the brilliant idea that was promised is blamed on everyone but the ones who are directly responsible for it. Those who voted leave.

I see and hear it every day.

People were repeatedly warned that the outcome of a vote to leave would result in the situation we find ourselves in now. A Tory Brexit.

Blaming others for this is facile.

Stephen

 

[tuga]

Leavers have enabled a government....along with those others I have already mentioned.

I know it’s tough to admit for those remain supporters who didn’t vote in the last GE in the best way to stop brexit, or for a second referendum due to < enter any old dross here about Labour> but it’s the way it is.

Try this link again

If remain supporters had thought it through the Tories may well have still won but with a much reduced majority. Leave supporters managed to do it and apparently they’re all thick.

Then there is 2017, 2015 and 2010. There has been plenty of opportunity in the last decade to vote for a better govt than this one and for no brexit.

May I remind you that Labour enable the triggering of Article 50.

 

[stephen bennett]

May I remind you that Labour enable the triggering of Article 50.

Not all. There were a few amongst them who showed their mettle by voting against.


The only really sane MPs in Parliament at that time. Invoking A50 without a plan and binding yourself to a timetable was madness.

Stephen

 

[tuga]

On current evidence some would argue that by voting Conservative, voters have enabled a particularly authoritarian, statist Labour government.

I would hardly call Labour a Communist party so, no.

Current Conservative party trend seems to point at a particularly authoritarian, yes, but it not one that is defending the interests of the taxpayers-citizens-voters but of a particular kind of business-first hands-off approach which favours mostly large foreign corporations (US insurance, pharma, agriculture, livestock and food, etc.) and some of the party members.

And like many pre-dictatorships from the 1st quarter of the past century the Conservatives, Vox in Spain, Salvini/Liga Norte in Italy, Le Pen in France, the Freedom Party of Austria in Austria, the United Right in Poland, Orban/Fidesz in Hungary, et cetera are using the same rethoric, the same populist approach, the same blaming strategy, and sometimes religion to get to power.
And like Trump, Erdoğan, Bolsonaro, Duterte or Putin they intend to keep it.

 

[tuga]

Not all. There were a few amongst them who showed their mettle by voting against.


The only really sane MPs in Parliament at that time. Invoking A50 without a plan and binding yourself to a timetable was madness.

Stephen

47 Labour MPS of how many voted against the triggering of Article 50?

What was the Party line?

 

[Brian]

May I remind you that Labour enable the triggering of Article 50.

Gawd blimey!

 

[Joe Hutch]

47 Labour MPS of how many voted against the triggering of Article 50?

What was the Party line?

To vote for Article 50:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ree-line-whip-to-vote-against-article-50-bill

'A fifth of Labour MPs defied Jeremy Corbyn’s three-line whip to vote against legislation granting Theresa May the power to trigger the UK’s exit from the European Union.

After a second day of impassioned debate in the House of Commons, a total of 498 MPs voted to give a second reading to the short bill granting the government the power to invoke article 50, while 114 voted against.

A total of 47 Labour MPs voted against the Brexit bill, joining 50 SNP MPs and seven Liberal Democrats. Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, joined them in the division lobbies, to applause from Labour rebels.

Even before MPs filed through to vote, Corbyn was hit by two fresh resignations from the shadow cabinet, by Labour MPs who felt they could not support what they said would be a historic mistake.'

 

[tuga]

To vote for Article 50:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ree-line-whip-to-vote-against-article-50-bill

'A fifth of Labour MPs defied Jeremy Corbyn’s three-line whip to vote against legislation granting Theresa May the power to trigger the UK’s exit from the European Union.

After a second day of impassioned debate in the House of Commons, a total of 498 MPs voted to give a second reading to the short bill granting the government the power to invoke article 50, while 114 voted against.

A total of 47 Labour MPs voted against the Brexit bill, joining 50 SNP MPs and seven Liberal Democrats. Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, joined them in the division lobbies, to applause from Labour rebels.

Even before MPs filed through to vote, Corbyn was hit by two fresh resignations from the shadow cabinet, by Labour MPs who felt they could not support what they said would be a historic mistake.'

Thanks.

Not all. There were a few amongst them who showed their mettle by voting against.


The only really sane MPs in Parliament at that time. Invoking A50 without a plan and binding yourself to a timetable was madness.

Stephen

I am sorry but if 80% of Labour did not vote against the triggering of Article 50 then Labour is guilty as charged.

Sorry I misread, Jeremy Corbyn’s three-line whip to vote against legislation granting Theresa May the power to trigger the UK’s exit from the European Union

 

[stephen bennett]

Thanks.



I am sorry but if 80% of Labour did not vote against the triggering of Article 50 then Labour is guilty as charged.

I knew what you meant.

I’m not disagreeing. Labour as movement, I agree.

Labour should have voted against unless the bill was connected to a plan.

I wrote to my MP about this. And he voted against.

Stephen

 

[eternumviti]

I would hardly call Labour a Communist party so, no.

Current Conservative party trend seems to point at a particularly authoritarian, yes, but it not one that is defending the interests of the taxpayers-citizens-voters but of a particular kind of business-first hands-off approach which favours mostly large foreign corporations (US insurance, pharma, agriculture, livestock and food, etc.) and some of the party members.

And like many pre-dictatorships from the 1st quarter of the past century the Conservatives, Vox in Spain, Salvini/Liga Norte in Italy, Le Pen in France, the Freedom Party of Austria in Austria, the United Right in Poland, Orban/Fidesz in Hungary, et cetera are using the same rethoric, the same populist approach, the same blaming strategy, and sometimes religion to get to power.
And like Trump, Erdoğan, Bolsonaro, Duterte or Putin they intend to keep it.

I know, think how lucky we were. We could have ended up with Corbyn!

 

[stephen bennett]

I know, think how lucky we were. We could have ended up with Corbyn!

We would have ended up with Labour. That’s more than one man. It’s a movement dedicated to making lives better for everyone.

We ended up with Johnson and Cummings.

And the Brexit party in all but name. And a brace of ideologue puppets. Dedicated to making their own lives better at the expense of everyone else.

Stephen

 

[Brian]

Victim blaming is a common method that people use to try and absolve themselves from the responsibility of their behaviour towards others.

That Brexit isn’t the brilliant idea that was promised is blamed on everyone but the ones who are directly responsible for it. Those who voted leave.

I see and hear it every day.

People were repeatedly warned that the outcome of a vote to leave would result in the situation we find ourselves in now. A Tory Brexit.

Blaming others for this is facile.

Stephen

You seem obsessed by blame, I wonder why? I am not talking about blame, I am talking about a real understanding of how the current situation has come about beyond the simplistic nonsense of hard remainers.

 

[lagavullin10y]

We would have ended up with Labour. That’s more than one man. It’s a movement dedicated to making lives better for everyone.

We ended up with Johnson and Cummings.

And the Brexit party in all but name. And a brace of ideologue puppets. Dedicated to making their own lives better at the expense of everyone else.

Stephen

if it were about Labour, Corbyn would have stepped down much earlier. Everybody saw it coming, he should have received the credits for getting Brexit done.

 

[TheDecameron]

We need to focus the positives.